Sprinters trainings approach for increasing finger speed?

[Mr M]

I'm thinking about this for some time.

AFAIK sprinters(I mean the fast guys running 100m etc.) have special training methods to build speed. It is one of the athleticism race which needs every milliseconds, so I'm sure they are pushing the limits.

I wonder if it is possible to use their approach for increasing finger speed in bass playing.

The second question is: if it is possible, does anyone knows how sprinters(athlets) are training, are there any book etc. explaining what they are doing and why.

[Erick Lam]

Sprinters need to get strong. Musicians need to be precise. So no.

[IAmTheDood]

one thing that's worked for me is just work on one string at a time .. 3 or 4 fingers .. back and forth .. once one speed is down .. increase it... use a metrodome ..

right now my left hand is actually faster than my right sometimes.. or they're just not always in sync .. that's what I need to work on.

[spindizzy]

Budda rope. There is a thread discussing it somewhere so I suggest checking that out first. Bill Dickens using a strength building technique in his instructionals connected to the use of his "Budda Rope". The approach is very similar to athletic training although more like swinging two bats before you take to the plate. Check it out as it may be one of the strategies you could employ in this type of pure physical development.

[Mr M]

Yes I know Buddha rope and I'm using something similar while practicing.

I don't agree with sprinters not beeing precise. Correct me if I'm wrong but sprinters are working precisely on every step they make while running (the angle of their body when they are starting the race, at which step they should be full vertical, how much should be their step distance, etc.). So they are not just running like a fool but it's really scientific and very precise sport. That's why I asked this. It is related with speed and precision (read dexterity).

My concern was: OK to build strength is necessary but not all. The timing, the precision(see above) so the dexterity should also be worked on. I wonder what sprinters are doing, how frequently, in which order. They are working with weights but I'm curious about other trainings they are doing.

[Erick Lam]

Of course sprinters need to be precise but mostly, they need to build large muscles. You don't need strength at all to play bass. If you can wiggle your fingers, you can play. All you need to do from there is control them. I watched the Buddha rope thing and I don't see the point.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

I watched the Buddha rope thing and I don't see the point.

And you can play like Bill Dickens too, right? Because that's a fairly major point when I'm weighing you opinion against his.

I think there's a pretty good parallel between sprinting and playing fast. While sprinters may need more strength than a bassist, they do also need to be fast. My guess is that the biggest part of training for speed is just going really fast with proper rest periods. I am not a sprinter, of course.

EDIT: It looks like sprinters practice technique at a slow speed and then speed it up (that sounds familiar). They also use assistance techniques such as being towed (dangerous) or running downhill to gain the coordination needed to move up to a speed slightly above their best. Obviously we can't tow our fingers, so we do the best we can. But it seems to boil down to getting the metronome out and working it up very slowly, just like it always has.

[DirtPoorRobins]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

Of course sprinters need to be precise but mostly, they need to build large muscles. You don't need strength at all to play bass. If you can wiggle your fingers, you can play. All you need to do from there is control them. I watched the Buddha rope thing and I don't see the point.

Actually sprinters aren't trying to build large muscles at all, they are trying to build lean muscle. You should check out anyone from Baylor University, especially Jeremy Wariner. Not much bigger than your average dude. He's world and olympic champ in the 400, and runs the 100 and 200 wicked fast too. Anyways, I think the only thing that you can get from looking at sprinters for playing faster bass licks is practice. They do it everyday, so should we. They don't practice fast every day, and sometimes they have short practice days, so should we. Sometimes, if the work out isn't going well, or they are feeling really tired, they just change the workout for the day, we should too. Don't practice something because you "should" do what you feel is right for that day. There's nothing worse than playing unmotivated music, or practicing unmotivated.

[weeding]

You don't need strength to play bass? I think that is probably a fairly incorrect statement. As you play you build up strength and endurance in your hands. It's not just wiggling your fingers.

[Erick Lam]

You're right it isn't the same. Wiggling is random. Playing is precise, but you need as much strength for both. Have you actually stopped to think how much force it takes to pluck a string? A baby can do it. Playing 16th notes at 200bpm requires extraordinary precision, not strength.

To Lemur, no, I can't play like Dickens and it's not something I aspire to. I believe in hearing the note's pitch and controlling ringing open strings. Why the rope does good for some people is because they actually do something with their instruments for 40 minutes every day.

For the same skill, a stronger sprinters will be better. It's a sport, a competition. First guy in wins. Music is an art form. There's no first nor last. Everybody needs to be at the same place at once. Completely different.

I think the only thing that you can get from looking at sprinters for playing faster bass licks is practice.

Absolutely.

[thesandman]

Sprinters train for explosive power. Besides weight training, they do lots of plyometrics. There are also specific and precise drills for footspeed. So can you train like a sprinter to be a faster bassist? yes and no. You don't need lots of strength traing to play the bass faster. But if you approach you're playing in a logical, organized, methodical way, you will get faster. How? I don't know. Speed isn't my main goal, but if there's something I can't play fast enough, I play it super slow until I can play it with the very least amount of motion. Then I go up 4 clicks on the metronome every day, till I can play it a little faster than I need too(drummer protection)haha
Good luck

[DocBop]

Not every one can be a sprinter the same as not all player can play fast. Talk to trainer and you will hear about fast-twitch muscles versus slow twitch. Some people have more fast twitch muscles and yes their they train differently. People with lots of slow-twitch are usually weight lifters, football linemen, etc.

As for music some people just can't move their fingers as fast as others. They have to work on different technique usually left hand techniques to get more notes out. Others just develop a style that doesn't need speed. Which means they are usually more musical.

[moro]

I can't find it now, but John Petrucci has an excercise based on this concept. (He says he got the idea from sprinting excercises he used to do while playing soccer in high school.)

If I remember correctly, you take a simple pattern and play it as quarter notes for a couple of measures, then as 16th for a couple of measures, then back to quarters, etc, over and over.

| ----------------|----------------|----------------|---------------- |
|.----------------|----------------|----------------|----------------.|
|.----------------|----------------|----------------|----------------.|
| 3---5---6---5---|3---5---6---5---|3565356535653565|3565356535653565 |

Something like that.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

To Lemur, no, I can't play like Dickens and it's not something I aspire to. I believe in hearing the note's pitch and controlling ringing open strings. Why the rope does good for some people is because they actually do something with their instruments for 40 minutes every day.

In that case, I bow to your superior speed-training experience.

[bassist15]

Im acually a sprinter on the high school track team . We do alot of the same thigns everyday for repitition . We concentrate on not wasting enerygy by tensing up arms , hands, ect. Thats why when you see an Olympic track athlete , their face is flopping around. Everyone , like in bass playing , develops their own techniques that they are comfortable with. I hope this helped.

[Erick Lam]

Originally Posted by lemur821

In that case, I bow to your superior speed-training experience.

Please, get back on your feet. I was being a bit sarcastic because while Dickens plays fast, he's also very sloppy. Take the rope off and practice muting open strings at the same time. It's more work but it pays off in the long term.

For fingerstyle, just do the usual "metronome up gradually", but before even using a metronome, learn to mute the string you just played with the next finger as fast as possible. You can only play as fast as your finger is back on the string. And you get a cleaner sound as a benefit.

Since people like the Big Name stamp of approval, here's some thoughts on strength, as well as other things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJlE5qNc

[Nick Bassman]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

Since people like the Big Name stamp of approval, here's some thoughts on strength, as well as other things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJlE5qNc

You beat me to it

[lemur821]

My take is that the stabilizing muscles in your hands need to gain strength moreso than the flexors. I've noticed that the muscle which pulls my pinky to the side has grown quite a bit since I started playing the bass, and is larger on my fretting hand than on my plucking hand. Clearly it's doing something that requires strength, and I don't think it's a stretch to say that other muscles are doing the same and could benefit from a workout.

[theshadow2001]

I really don't see how sprinters have ended up as a topic on a bass forum. I mean there isn't even an analogy you could draw from it.

You want speed you do it the same way as every other bass player who wants speed. You set your metrenome slow. You record yourself playing a scale a line one of those spider excercises what ever

Once you have satisfied certain criteria. Timing, tone, finger balance, or whatever criteria you have set you increase the BPM on the meteronome. You repeat this until the metrenome is as fast a possible. This takes one hell of a long time to do. But thats how you build speed. You don't try and play as fast as you can for as long as you can or you'll end up sounding like some high school metal wanna be on you tube.

Here's a link to an excercise the wise ed fuqua gave me to help me get better balance of tone between fingers. It serves more functions than that though and can be used as an excerscise to build speed as well.


Speed is not about strength. Bass playing is not about strength. Yes your hand does build some muscle from being used so much. Bass playing is about as was said precision and dexterity. Building the msucles in your hand shouldn't even be thought about. That will come naturally as a side effect from doing proper excersises for building speed. Concentrate on the excersizes not building muscle. You don't need one of those hand squeezer dealys to become a better bass player or any other sort of exercsize. You need to play bass to be a better bass player. Playing the bass is your workout.

[Professor X]

Originally Posted by IAmTheDood

use a metrodome ..

alright... i'm in downtown Minneapolis... staring at the home of the twins and Vikings...now what???