String Theory - Stupid Question

[Bassmunkee]

Hi there,
Although I've been playing for a number of years, I've never been "trained", so I've decided to catch up on my theory.
Now I know more theory than I thought that I did, and I know the obvious basics - what a semitone is, how many semitones in an octave, the relationship between the first 12 notes and the next 12 notes on any given string, that kind of thing.
BUT
One thing I'm struggling with, and it sounds really stupid I know - is this -
I know - because I do it - that you can tune the open A based upon the 5th fret of the E, and so on, but what is the relationship between those 2 notes on those strings?
I know they are the same note, but they on two differrent strings, and now I have got on to the theory of it, I can't get my head round what the difference is in terms of musical theory other than that one string is tuned to E and the other to A which is obviously a higher pitch.
Does that make sense?

[Bruce Lindfield]

You are talking about octaves - an octave up or down - the same note in a different octave?

Or that bass strings are tuned in 4ths - the strings go up in 4ths ...?

Whereas, say a Cello is tuned in 5ths.

[Cap'n Video]

The two notes are identical. That is, they have the same frequency. As you fret a string, you change the speaking length of the string, i.e. the portion of the string that vibrates to produce a given frequency which our ear interprets as a given note. When you fret the E string at the 5th fret, the speaking length of the sting vibrates at the same frequency as the open A string, producing the same note.

Going to the 7th fret of the D string will produce a note which is roughly twice the frequency of the open A, giving you an octave.

[Qvist]

But yet there is still a difference in the sound between an open A and a fretted A

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Qvist

But yet there is still a difference in the sound between an open A and a fretted A

And that difference is where the artistry comes in.

[Jools4001]

An A played on the 5th fret of the E string and an A played on the open A string is the same note. No more, no less.

Because they are played on strings of different thicknesses and the note on the E string will have a shorter speaking length and sound a little more thumpy.

If you play both notes together, you're simply playing unison

[dvh]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

And that difference is where the artistry comes in.

+1, with bass you eventually discover it's not what notes you play but how you play them

(because by then you're getting all the notes right)

[hieronymous]

Maybe this would help - on a piano each note occurs only once. If you want to play middle C, there's only one possibility.

But on guitar and bass, there are many notes that can be played in several locations, such as the open A string and the 5th fret on the low E string. But the sound quality of either of these will be different - I think "timbre" is one word used to describe this. So depending on the sound you want, you may choose to play either the open A string or the fretted version.

It may also be a matter of technique - if I was going to play a bunch of high notes (let's say above the 12th fret) against a low A drone, I would use the open string, maybe even let it ring out while playing the other notes. Or if I was playing a fast line alternating between the low G (3rd fret E string) and the low A, it might make more sense to use the fretted version - easier to mute either note, sound quality would be more similar, etc.

[Cap'n Video]

Originally Posted by Qvist

But yet there is still a difference in the sound between an open A and a fretted A

True, but the difference is in the overtones, the subtle harmonics of the note, not the fundamental. A good ear can hear the difference between a fretted note and it's open-string equivalent, but the fundamentals are the same. If they weren't, you would be unable to use the 5th fret/open string tuning method.

[neurotictim]

Originally Posted by hieronymous

...on guitar and bass, there are many notes that can be played in several locations, such as the open A string and the 5th fret on the low E string. But the sound quality of either of these will be different - I think "timbre" is one word used to describe this. So depending on the sound you want, you may choose to play either the open A string or the fretted version.

It may also be a matter of technique - if I was going to play a bunch of high notes (let's say above the 12th fret) against a low A drone, I would use the open string, maybe even let it ring out while playing the other notes. Or if I was playing a fast line alternating between the low G (3rd fret E string) and the low A, it might make more sense to use the fretted version - easier to mute either note, sound quality would be more similar, etc.

That's the definition of "timbre" as I was taught. Great example.

[hieronymous]

Originally Posted by neurotictim

That's the definition of "timbre" as I was taught. Great example.

Thank you - I thought of another one, that actually isn't related to timbre as much as technique. If you are just pumping low As, the technique you use to mute the end of each note will be very different between the open A string and the 5th fret of the E string. If you are slamming out a low note with a pick (think "Enter Sandman"), then the open string is fine. But if you want short, round, staccato notes, then the fretted note might be easier to control. And actually, the fretted note might be a little fatter in that case, so timbre enters the picture again.

(Can you tell I play a lot of pedal notes? )

Originally Posted by Cap'n Video

True, but the difference is in the overtones, the subtle harmonics of the note, not the fundamental. A good ear can hear the difference between a fretted note and it's open-string equivalent, but the fundamentals are the same. If they weren't, you would be unable to use the 5th fret/open string tuning method.

That's a really good point too. The harmonics are a huge part (if not the most important part) of what make the tonal differences. So a saxophone, piano, and bass playing the same note will sound different.

[HaVIC5]

That's a really good point too. The harmonics are a huge part (if not the most important part) of what make the tonal differences. So a saxophone, piano, and bass playing the same note will sound different.

Technically, its the attack where the ear registers all the difference harmonics. If you hear a recording of a piano holding a middle C and then a violin holding a middle C (without vibrato), then cut off the recording of the attack, the ear won't be able to distinguish which is the piano and which is the violin. Interesting tidbit.

[ehque]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Technically, its the attack where the ear registers all the difference harmonics. If you hear a recording of a piano holding a middle C and then a violin holding a middle C (without vibrato), then cut off the recording of the attack, the ear won't be able to distinguish which is the piano and which is the violin. Interesting tidbit.

This doesn't make sense to me. You could be right, but i'd imagine i can tell the difference in a piano 440Hz A and a flute 440Hz A, attack or not.

Never tried, though.

[neurotictim]

I think he's specifically referring to the violin because it's also a string instrument, like the piano, only a different method of causing the string to vibrate...

[paganjack]

if you wanted to get technical you could call them different enharmonic spellings...not sure if that is 100% accurate but it kind of captures the same idea, IMO.
enharmonic note: C=B#=Dbb

...

[Sahm]

Originally Posted by paganjack

if you wanted to get technical you could call them different enharmonic spellings...not sure if that is 100% accurate but it kind of captures the same idea, IMO.
enharmonic note: C=B#=Dbb

...

But they're not different spellings if you talk about an open A and an A on the fifth fret of the E string. They're literally the same spelling. It's only enharmonic if you talk about the open A and the G-double sharp of the fifth fret of E!

This is first and foremost a timbre issue. They are quite literally the same note, just different timbre. If you play the same frequency on two different instruments, that too would be a timbre issue.

[69nites]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Technically, its the attack where the ear registers all the difference harmonics. If you hear a recording of a piano holding a middle C and then a violin holding a middle C (without vibrato), then cut off the recording of the attack, the ear won't be able to distinguish which is the piano and which is the violin. Interesting tidbit.

that's not really true.

It's true that most of the harmonics are heard on attack but even sustained a piano has way more fundamental than a violin.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by 69nites

that's not really true.

It's true that most of the harmonics are heard on attack but even sustained a piano has way more fundamental than a violin.

You ever try it?

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Technically, its the attack where the ear registers all the difference harmonics. If you hear a recording of a piano holding a middle C and then a violin holding a middle C (without vibrato), then cut off the recording of the attack, the ear won't be able to distinguish which is the piano and which is the violin. Interesting tidbit.

All that says is that pianos and violins sound similar at middle C, except for the attack.

[69nites]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

You ever try it?

not side by side but I've heard both and am confident that I could pick them out blindly.