The technical bassist. Old school or new school?

[KrisWarrington]

I've noticed (in my short time of being a member of this forum) that no one (mainly the more seasoned bass "veterans") really seems to appreciate the technical side of bass and its aspects. I will admit that technically isn't a sure sign of being a great bassist, but there is a lot of skill involved in playing technical riffs on bass. Personally I started out like most bassist, holding down the low end with a fluid groove and simple beat while the guitarist did his thing. Over time I developed (as did my choice in music) to more technical aspects of the bass (ex. Steve Harris and Geezer). It just went on from there, constantly challenging myself to do new things on the bass. After awhile of doing that I realized that I was losing some of the core aspects of bass so I reverted back to the "AC/DC" way of playing bass for awhile eventually moving on to a moderate mix of both. IMO I don't find simplistic bass impressive, sure simplicity is genius but as a bassist doing something on bass that everyone can do is just adverage. I've been told that I think of bass as more of a competition which I think it really is, no one wants to be "adverage" at anything they want to push past their peers. That's what lead to some of the greats, another steve harris reference, which made them known a lot more for their style rather than what band they play in (Newstead, McCartney, ect). Anyone can be a famous bassist if they are in a famous band but for people to know who a bassist is, with out them having any knowledge of bass or music for the most part, is a pretty big achievement. Evan Brewer is another prime example. His solo album is amazing, and he incorporates so many styles of playing. This whole statement is IMO of course just wondering what some other thoughts on the subject were. Music is constantly evolving and changing eventually the old school bassists will die off and that will leave us with todays young bassists.

[Roy Vogt]

I'd keep pushing the envelope, myself. Where are we going to get the next generation of Stanley Clarkes, Jacos, Hadrien Ferauds, and Stephen "Thundercat" Bruners if you don't?
To quote Anthony Hopkins in "The Edge": "What one man can do, another man can do. I'm going to kill that bear!"
I've got a student who is just graduating from Belmont. On one hand he plays in the Heavy Metal Band Invicta and on the other hand he writes 20th Century Compositions and plays them on his new 6 string with a Willis ramp and uses techniques from Feraud, DiPiazza and Erskine. You can do both! When some one says, "You can have technique or "feel", which do you choose?" the correct answer is "Yes!".
Remember, those who can't have two choices:
1. Sit on the sidelines and criticize those who can.
2. Learn how to do what they can't do.
Play on!

[jimmydean]

Play what and how you feel . It's great to be the next dazzling player of the month if that's what your about .But bear in mind that over the top playing just does'nt work in all forms of music . We all know what the first role of the bass is , if you can expand on it and it fits ,all the power to you . I'm an old school guy with a hint of the new . Too be honest , I am in awe of some players , but it comes down to the music . What's the point of playing a million notes if eight will do just as good ?

[dermihi]

Nothing wrong with being able to play technically challenging stuff, it's just another tool in your toolbox. Stepping down is easy, you know. Also, it's got nothing to do with wether your playing is musical or not. Just my 2 cents...

[Rockin Mike]

Don't forget to keep it musically familiar to your audience.

It's possible to get so interested in what your fingers are doing that you forget to be musical.

[RDUB]

Originally Posted by Rockin Mike

Don't forget to keep it musically familiar to your audience.

It's possible to get so interested in what your fingers are doing that you forget to be musical.

+1. That's what separates Jaco from a lot of other players, for example. Amazing skill, but still great melody and groove.

[KrisWarrington]

In my personal style, lets say the guitar is doing something simple like a 3,5,7 riff light on the chugs, thats when I would do a slow tap or maybe a sweep or hit up some penetonics or modes. If the guitar is doing something that should be unique to the guitar then I keep a nice groove on the low end while he does his thing. Other then that I tend to follow the guitars addin in a fill here and there. An acoustic part however is when I tend to be the most creative I never do anything simple over acoustic parts that's the one point in a song that allows the bass to be the most powerful in a song because the distortion of the guitar doesnt "drown out" the bass at all. (Think the middle of powerslave by Iron Maiden) Bass is an extraordinary instrument and a true bassist thinks completely different from a guitar player. That's why when I make originals I write the bass line first then have my brother go over it with guitar. I think all songs should be like that, the bassist writes the base of the entire song then the guitarist writes in his own riffs to the bass line. Has never failed thus far

[clodhopper]

This is an attitude to music which is not necessarily universal. My experience playing non-western music (particularly African music) is that to play a part correctly it's almost obligatory to stop "showing off" Nobody is really interested in how good you are as an individual - you are just part of a whole which, hopefully, is greater than the sum of it's parts. When you get the part right and can keep it going for half an hour the feeling is like nothing else. I'm really talking about playing drum or percussion parts in an ensemble here. There are lead players who get the attention, but most attention is on the dancers anyway so the opportunity for ego trips by musicians is limited.
This really opened up bass playing for me. Rather than regarding playing the same line or pattern as a chore and constantly trying to add my own little fills to inject some of my personality (usually just tripping up and screwing up the groove) I found that just playing the groove was reward enough. Get it right and you are part of a group of people all moving in the same direction and communicating in a very subtle and unique way. And it sounds much better than a bunch of musicians trying to impress each other and the audience at the expense of the music.

[JAUQO III-X]

The best thing you can do is just learn to be both. A simple bass line can become a great bass line. A technical bass line can become a great bass line.

At the end of the day it just comes down to how it works in the song and how it moves the listener.

I have been hired for gigs and asked to specifically be technical.

I personally pride myself on having an equal ability to do both.

[KrisWarrington]

Originally Posted by clodhopper

This really opened up bass playing for me. Rather than regarding playing the same line or pattern as a chore and constantly trying to add my own little fills to inject some of my personality (usually just tripping up and screwing up the groove) I found that just playing the groove was reward enough.

To be able to "add my own little fills to inject some of my personality" is a core part of being a bassist IMO. If you trip up or screw up the groove then you should practice more to eliminate those screw ups. Try using a metronome while playing. Play those grooves and start out trying to add in something unique at the end of every other measure or so while still keeping the timing of that groove. It's a decently difficult task expecially if your increasing your tempo or going off tempo while the other instruments maintain theirs for a few seconds or so. It will take a lot of practice and has taken me years to even begin to be proficient at it, and still so far from perfect. Metronomes never lie, never go out of time, and are unforgiving. Best way to learn IMO.


Sorry for the double post, technical difficulties.

[maxgrant]

Originally Posted by KrisWarrington

I've noticed (in my short time of being a member of this forum) that no one (mainly the more seasoned bass "veterans") really seems to appreciate the technical side of bass and its aspects. I will admit that technically isn't a sure sign of being a great bassist, but there is a lot of skill involved in playing technical riffs on bass.

Some folks seem to have the mentality that "bass is a critical support instrument" and should therefore not be approached creatively. Or that the bass should never crave the spotlight.

I find this mentality moribund and of course completely unartistic. Treating bass like something that literally should be seen and not heard has become almost a cult in certain circles.

The fundamental facts are you are an artist, you have a musical instrument, and you should seek every path that you can towards expressing yourself on that instrument. You are NOT, I repeat, NOT a machine expected to stay out of the real musicians' way. That attitude is utter horseshit and if you try to approach a lifetime of playing in that mode, anyone with a smidgeon of artistic sensibility will wither and die of boredom.

If you choose to be an artist with your instrument, you will always be out in front of the guys who think in small, tiny boxes. Being able to play with great technical skill is a huge huge huge asset because that great skill can be applied at all levels of playing. To illustrate this, go grab the first Jaco Pastorius solo CD. If you do not have this recording, GO NOW AND GET IT. It is almost like a textbook of how to really get wicked with a bass guitar. I personally do not care for the music as personally enjoyable music I'd sit and listen to for kicks, but it's hard not to be fascinated with just how well Jaco played.

At any rate, to illustrate how great skill makes you a better player even if you don't like fast, busy, over-the-top riffing, listen to Jaco play the verse of "Come On, Come Over." It's a pretty simple riff, but the groove is fantastic and Jaco's insanely precise playing is still very evident, even when he's not flying all over the fretboard.

THAT is what good technique is for. It's for versatility.

I absolutely reject the notion that I should not stretch my musicianship and look for some "pocket" to keep myself in. A bass is a musical instrument with immense power and dynamic reach. Explore all of the possibilities in your instrument. Why would you not want to?

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by maxgrant

Some folks seem to have the mentality that "bass is a critical support instrument" and should therefore not be approached creatively. Or that the bass should never crave the spotlight.

I find this mentality moribund and of course completely unartistic. Treating bass like something that literally should be seen and not heard has become almost a cult in certain circles.

The fundamental facts are you are an artist, you have a musical instrument, and you should seek every path that you can towards expressing yourself on that instrument. You are NOT, I repeat, NOT a machine expected to stay out of the real musicians' way. That attitude is utter horseshit and if you try to approach a lifetime of playing in that mode, anyone with a smidgeon of artistic sensibility will wither and die of boredom.

If you choose to be an artist with your instrument, you will always be out in front of the guys who think in small, tiny boxes. Being able to play with great technical skill is a huge huge huge asset because that great skill can be applied at all levels of playing. To illustrate this, go grab the first Jaco Pastorius solo CD. If you do not have this recording, GO NOW AND GET IT. It is almost like a textbook of how to really get wicked with a bass guitar. I personally do not care for the music as personally enjoyable music I'd sit and listen to for kicks, but it's hard not to be fascinated with just how well Jaco played.

At any rate, to illustrate how great skill makes you a better player even if you don't like fast, busy, over-the-top riffing, listen to Jaco play the verse of "Come On, Come Over." It's a pretty simple riff, but the groove is fantastic and Jaco's insanely precise playing is still very evident, even when he's not flying all over the fretboard.

THAT is what good technique is for. It's for versatility.

I absolutely reject the notion that I should not stretch my musicianship and look for some "pocket" to keep myself in. A bass is a musical instrument with immense power and dynamic reach. Explore all of the possibilities in your instrument. Why would you not want to?

Depending on the artists who may have hired the bass player. Usually with less you will keep the gig.

[KrisWarrington]

Originally Posted by maxgrant

Some folks seem to have the mentality that "bass is a critical support instrument" and should therefore not be approached creatively. Or that the bass should never crave the spotlight.

I find this mentality moribund and of course completely unartistic. Treating bass like something that literally should be seen and not heard has become almost a cult in certain circles.

The fundamental facts are you are an artist, you have a musical instrument, and you should seek every path that you can towards expressing yourself on that instrument. You are NOT, I repeat, NOT a machine expected to stay out of the real musicians' way. That attitude is utter horseshit and if you try to approach a lifetime of playing in that mode, anyone with a smidgeon of artistic sensibility will wither and die of boredom.

If you choose to be an artist with your instrument, you will always be out in front of the guys who think in small, tiny boxes. Being able to play with great technical skill is a huge huge huge asset because that great skill can be applied at all levels of playing. To illustrate this, go grab the first Jaco Pastorius solo CD. If you do not have this recording, GO NOW AND GET IT. It is almost like a textbook of how to really get wicked with a bass guitar. I personally do not care for the music as personally enjoyable music I'd sit and listen to for kicks, but it's hard not to be fascinated with just how well Jaco played.

At any rate, to illustrate how great skill makes you a better player even if you don't like fast, busy, over-the-top riffing, listen to Jaco play the verse of "Come On, Come Over." It's a pretty simple riff, but the groove is fantastic and Jaco's insanely precise playing is still very evident, even when he's not flying all over the fretboard.

THAT is what good technique is for. It's for versatility.

I absolutely reject the notion that I should not stretch my musicianship and look for some "pocket" to keep myself in. A bass is a musical instrument with immense power and dynamic reach. Explore all of the possibilities in your instrument. Why would you not want to?

+1

I've been attacked by a few members of some bands I used to play in for not being that "bass machine" and in other bands I have been praised. Some musicians, expecially guitar players, believe that they should be the front man or feel threatened when you take something they wrote originaly and add your own unique feel to it even though it goes perfectly with what they are playing they feel like you're trying to steal their "thunder". I believe it should be equally shared. Bass is an instrument ofter overlooked by nonmusicians anyway, which is sad and should be changed.

[Mike Dimin]

Stop wanting to be a bass player, strive to be a musician.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by KrisWarrington

I believe it should be equally shared. Bass is an instrument ofter overlooked by nonmusicians anyway, which is sad and should be changed.

Equally shared you say. In most band situations if the goal is to make the band sound good and every ones goal is to have a great sound then your contribution is equal.

Sounds like you need to put your own band together, therefore you can do what ever you want with out any one complaining or striving for your spotlight. And that's not even guaranteed.

[Mayers]

Originally Posted by KrisWarrington

I've noticed (in my short time of being a member of this forum) that no one (mainly the more seasoned bass "veterans") really seems to appreciate the technical side of bass and its aspects. I will admit that technically isn't a sure sign of being a great bassist, but there is a lot of skill involved in playing technical riffs on bass. Personally I started out like most bassist, holding down the low end with a fluid groove and simple beat while the guitarist did his thing. Over time I developed (as did my choice in music) to more technical aspects of the bass (ex. Steve Harris and Geezer). It just went on from there, constantly challenging myself to do new things on the bass. After awhile of doing that I realized that I was losing some of the core aspects of bass so I reverted back to the "AC/DC" way of playing bass for awhile eventually moving on to a moderate mix of both. IMO I don't find simplistic bass impressive, sure simplicity is genius but as a bassist doing something on bass that everyone can do is just adverage. I've been told that I think of bass as more of a competition which I think it really is, no one wants to be "adverage" at anything they want to push past their peers. That's what lead to some of the greats, another steve harris reference, which made them known a lot more for their style rather than what band they play in (Newstead, McCartney, ect). Anyone can be a famous bassist if they are in a famous band but for people to know who a bassist is, with out them having any knowledge of bass or music for the most part, is a pretty big achievement. Evan Brewer is another prime example. His solo album is amazing, and he incorporates so many styles of playing. This whole statement is IMO of course just wondering what some other thoughts on the subject were. Music is constantly evolving and changing eventually the old school bassists will die off and that will leave us with todays young bassists.

I did something similar, but I got bored very fast with simple harmonies or simple bass line in the music I hear. So I studies jazz for many years, I saw that genre as an opportunity to play melodies, harmonies, walking bass and solo, so I could be all not just the low end.

This lead me to classical music, every instrument is complex, have equally difficult part to play and have much more complex harmonies going on.

After that I saw metal as being the thing, very technical playing for everyone, wierd harmonies and many stuff taken from classical music.

[clodhopper]

Originally Posted by maxgrant

Some folks seem to have the mentality that "bass is a critical support instrument" and should therefore not be approached creatively.

These two are not mutually exclusive viewpoints. It's possible to play a purely supportive role and yet have great opportunities to be creative within that role.
I'm not advocating that all bass players should just play the groove and not stretch out, but I think many musicians (not just bass players) miss the joy of ensemble playing.

[KrisWarrington]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Equally shared you say. In most band situations if the goal is to make the band sound good and every ones goal is to have a great sound then your contribution is equal.

Sounds like you need to put your own band together, therefore you can do what ever you want with out any one complaining or striving for your spotlight. And that's not even guaranteed.

I've been in a few bands and have worked on the side filling in for quite a few bands. When it comes to my own material I tend to play each instrument myself or with my brother (an amazing guitarist IMO who is the only musician who "clicks" with me). That way my originals sound like I believe they should sound. I may not be an amazing guitarist (due to my lack of effectively using a pick) or drummer but when I record something original it just seems to be perfect. When it comes to other peoples material I'm very open to their opinions because I know they probably feel the same way, but offer my suggestions for my instrument and it often ends in a "do this for the recording, do that for live" situation which I am fine with.

[Audiophage]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Stop wanting to be a bass player, strive to be a musician.

+1

Also, music isn't a competition. If you can't get past that, then just quit.

[Mike Dimin]

When I was writing for Bass Frontiers (in the days when it was a real magazine) I interviewed Andy Cichon (Shania Twain, Billy Joel). Andy's 3 rules for being a bass player:

1. Serve the song
2. Serve the song
3. Serve the song