Theory vs Groove.. one or other or both?

[bubinga5]

this is thread from BC, and a great bassist from the Steely Dan tribute Nearly Dan.... i wanted to hear what you US/the world bass players thought about this thread....what are you thoughts...

http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=109844

[Kobaia]

groove will always win out.

thats coming from a theory junkie

[dmusic148]

WHEN you play is more important than WHAT you play. So says Victor, and I agree.

[azfryguy]

it helps to know both i would think i only know a little tiny bit of theory so your guess is as good as mine

[faulknersj]

Both are important, both work together, both are necessary. That said, a lot of players have notes for miles but fail to focus on groove, cincopation, and the ability to leave notes out and create space. My favorite rhythmic excersise is to google 'Monkey Machine' online drum machine, set the tempo and craft a simple cool beat out of the machine. Then I give myself 3 notes to work with, often E + D on the A string, and G on the D string. I create a spontaneous groove over the beat with those 3 notes and force myself to totally change the groove every 4 measures. I will go on like this for extended time periods thus forcing myself to craft killer rhythmic approaches by limiting myself to only 3 notes. Works for me

[guroove]

There's no reason why one should exclude or preclude the other. Of course groove wins, but nothing about learning theory opposes your ability to learn to groove.

[bubinga5]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

WHEN you play is more important than WHAT you play. So says Victor, and I agree.

although i nearly agree..i think when and what is equally important..

[puddin tame]

all groove is is a sub concious understanding of theory.

it's more a case of practical experience/natural intuition vs book learnin'

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by bubinga5

although i nearly agree..i think when and what is equally important..

Nah... after all, if you hit a clam, you're never more than a half-step away from the right note!!!!....

[chris.gotfunk]

Originally Posted by faulknersj

Both are important, both work together, both are necessary. That said, a lot of players have notes for miles but fail to focus on groove, cincopation, and the ability to leave notes out and create space. My favorite rhythmic excersise is to google 'Monkey Machine' online drum machine, set the tempo and craft a simple cool beat out of the machine. Then I give myself 3 notes to work with, often E + D on the A string, and G on the D string. I create a spontaneous groove over the beat with those 3 notes and force myself to totally change the groove every 4 measures. I will go on like this for extended time periods thus forcing myself to craft killer rhythmic approaches by limiting myself to only 3 notes. Works for me

That Monkey Machine is MONEY!!!! Good find! Thanks for that.

Yes, I feel that if you had to choose between the two groove is more important... but you should have both.... sadly... I know very little theory and rely heavily on my ability to groove.

[dave64o]

Honestly, I simply don't get these kinds of questions. Making a conscious decision to go down one path and NOT the other will eventually come back to haunt you. Develop BOTH sets of skills, they're not mutually exclusive!



I also agree with this statement:

Originally Posted by puddin tame

all groove is is a sub concious understanding of theory.

it's more a case of practical experience/natural intuition vs book learnin'

[faulknersj]

Yes, the 'Monkey Machine' online drum machine should be every bass players best buddy! Its like a super metronome...and it's free!

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by dave64o

Honestly, I simply don't get these kinds of questions. Making a conscious decision to go down one path and NOT the other will eventually come back to haunt you. Develop BOTH sets of skills, they're not mutually exclusive!

Of course. But simple+groove trumps chops-groove all day long. I'm just saying that no matter what you play, be sure to make it feel good.

[silky smoove]

Why is there a debate? The two are not mutually exclusive. It's not like learning theory prohibits you from being able to groove or vice versa.

[kesslari]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

Why is there a debate? The two are not mutually exclusive. It's not like learning theory prohibits you from being able to groove or vice versa.

Bingo.

Also - is "cincopation" being able to play Latin (Spanish) grooves in 5?

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

Why is there a debate? The two are not mutually exclusive. It's not like learning theory prohibits you from being able to groove or vice versa.

+1

[greenboy]

Lots of kinds of "grooves". I know guys who are often deficient in groove AND in theory often like to debate this stuff... There's nothing like trying to jam songs with a stand-in player who's only got one kind of vestigal groove, and no theory or ear which would enable him to get what's going on and make better things happen with it.

[dpbass66]

I mean no disrespect, but I really cant wrap my head around how this is even a relevant comparison. Knowledge of music theory is obtained by making an effort to learn it. Anyone can have it, just about, unless you have a learning disability. If you choose to not learn theory, you choose to remain ignorant on some level.

Groove on the other hand is an inate ability. It is different from having good "metronomic" time, ie playing very steady, and not deviating from the meter. You can learn that, but assuming you have good technique, real good groove "feel" is an inherent quality, that IMO you cant learn....caveat - I do feel that technique inhibits someones groove sometimes. Some players have "groove", but it doesnt come out because of poor technique. Do YOU think you can "learn" groove? Hmmm. I am not convinced.

So IMO, MAYBE this comparison only applies to those who have good groove to begin with.To them, the REAL question is, "Do you think learning theory would make you a better bass player?" For those who do not have good groove, it is a moot point. They have no choice.

[BigOldHarry]

Sigh. This again.

A lit prof once told me "You have to know the rules in order to best break the rules" - So I would say that a thorough grounding in theory *and* good groove is the best situation.

[okcrum]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

Why is there a debate? The two are not mutually exclusive. It's not like learning theory prohibits you from being able to groove or vice versa.

I think it's easier as a rule to hear the grooveless than it is to hear the theoryless when they each play a groove. I'd bet the opposite would happen if they both played Giant Steps.

But, rhetorically, which happens more often?

Edit: here's an example of groove+theory=formidable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQGCiWZjneI&NR=1