Thinking about giving up (rythm issues)

[Etienned]

I'm maybe looking for tips or encouragement, but I also wish to vent a bit.

I've been taking private lessons (for 2 years), read alot here, practice at least 5 times a week (1 hour and more), got a metronome, drum machine software, books filled with timing exercises... and yet I still feel like I cannot hold rythm like a bassist should.

I'm struggling to either count or ''feel'' the rythm. Even simple 3/4 (such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzj8...eature=related) are bringing me to the border of despair. And I don't even want to talk about 16th or 12/8 (which ends up sounding like a sloppy and inconsistent swing). I practice at 60bpm and up, but listening to a recording of myself is saddening.

Lessons are costly and I'm wondering if I'm simply wasting my time and money by continuing since I'm probably rythmically (sp?) challenged (aka tempo-handicaped).

Anyone been there ?

[PaulRR]

Maybe take a break for awhile? Dont quit.

[Elrend]

Put away the bass and start clapping, clap different subdivisions to a metronome (while counting out loud).

[Etienned]

Yeah, I did practice clapping at the beginning, I'll re-give it a shot.
A break might be good to consider, my piano surely needs more attention.

[makkE]

Are you playing with people, or only alone?
Maybe it's time to just go out and do it ?

Maybe you are trying too hard? What happens if you totally forget about keeping time and focus on something else? Like listening to the song itsef, the singer, the feel of the strings under your fingers, or focusing on the meaning of the song?
Can you play it when you're (not too) drunk?

You might need to find out if your problem is a mental one (trying too hard, judging yourself too much) or if it's a real timing issue.

Take that chanson you mentioned, and play along. Don't try to play right, don't focus on your time, have a glass of wine. Focus on the song, the words, the emotion in the voice, how it makes you feel, imagine how that studio smelled... anything you like as long as it takes your focus of your timing.

If that doesn't lead to better results, go back to the woodshed, and do as Elrend suggested.
Also, there are a lot of opportunities to practice your timing by simply listening to the world around you. On the train, in traffic - there's rythm everywhere. Learn to be aware of time itself.

[john grey]

Frankly 2 years is not that long. You may have inappropriate expectations of your playing. When someone uses a metronome, they are comparing their level of ability to a (mathematical) absolute. While there are many people who can do that for a varying length of time, it takes practice.

Progress is made in DIFFERENT areas. Some people (at 2 years) can't fully read a neck, understand very basic theory, or even understand a musical staff.

You have found an area which you believe you need improvement; excellent. However IF you are making your playing music some achievement-oriented agenda and not getting enjoyment from it, then you may have unreasonable expectations from both music and yourself.

When someone uses expressions like "hold rhythm like a bassist should", I wonder what they think they need to accomplish. Playing music is NOT a competitive phenomenon. That's why it's called an art. The conception that you "should" be at a certain level appears reveling in that at it's core is a very competitive yearning.

I would think that the best thing is to ask yourself where the standards you can't meet are coming from. If they originate from yourself (honestly) then your competitive personality is betraying you by making an art form into an athletic event. This should be stopped because it will hamper your creativity. Instead of expressing yourself through music, you will be a technician. If they come from somewhere ELSE than you (some outside influence), eliminate that in response to music.
I have never met a perfect individual. The older we get the less perfect we see ourselves to be.

[Bassamatic]

Rhythm IS an aptitude that we can be high or low in, so it IS possible for it to be naturally difficult for you.

However, you mentioned your piano - can you play piano to your satisfaction? All music requires rhythm, so if you can do one, you should be able to do the other.

[stingraysvt]

If it makes you feel any better, in grade school, my teacher would hit me on top of the head "in time" while I played the weekly lesson.

He'd Say "COUNT! COUNT!!! YOU'RE NOT COUNTING!" as he slapped time on top of my head! lol!

I later went on to be First Chair for all but 2 weeks the rest of my high school career, and now as far as I can tell, I have impeccable timing.

That has really followed me through to bass

I played saxophone in school for 8 Years, so all of the rudimentary stuff was there when I transitioned it to bass.

Only thing I regret is not taking time to nail down the bass clef so I could sight read on bass, but I guess that's what makes me the player I am today.

[seventhframe]

Put the bass down for a bit. Buy a pair of drum sticks and practice drum patterns.
I played drums for almost 10 years before playing bass (long before) and I can't even start to explain how helpful that ended up being!!!!

Practice with your metronome at HALF the speed, or even slower. 30bpm's and start doing some rhythmic patterns in 4/4, 4/8 and so on but keep it a LOW tempo where your "inner clock" will fill in the rest of the missing beats.

Also, dance. Stupid dance, whatever dance...tap your feel to a rhythm.


NEVER give up!!!!!!!!! Bass is a beautiful instrument.

[Etienned]

Maybe I need someone hitting me ? ; )

Thanks guys for the perspectives,
truth is I have very little clue on what 2 years can allow you to do. I understand its not competitive but I wish I could be able to lay something for other musicians to work upon even if its relatively simple. I feel that rythm is naturally difficult for me and I'm afraid I'll never be half decent.

Theory and sight reading are not so bad, but I have a hard time ''letting it go'' and not focusing too much on rythm since its the major part of the challenge for me. I mention ''like a bassist should'' because I think rythm is very important down here on the bass clef.

I mentionned the piano because I recently bought one and I'm still learning some very basic stuff (C, D, F, G scales, Hey Jude and some chord progression/inversions...). Nailing rythm is not yet on my radar as far as the piano is concerned, syncing/isolating both hands is hard enough for the moment.

I used to play with the school ensemble drummer whom was always able to lock with me (not me locking, but him following) and it was great. But since that student left school, I haven't found another drummer I felt comfortable with (some rush, some over play to the point I lose all reference, some I just can't follow). I play some folk with a friend but we don't care how bad we play. Still I wish I could be better and more naturally play with more people.

I'm kinda scared to post a CL ad looking for players, I feel I would not be good enough to actually make it interesting for them to have me around. Silly maybe, but I do not have enough under my proverbial belt to deal with it.

[Tortve87]

Don't give up!

Don't waste your time on money on books an dvd's about rhythm and time etc...

Rhythm is a skill that we can develop. Some are just born in to dance in 3/4, clap in 4/4 and sing in 7/8... But you can learn to develop it. You just need to practise slow and easy in beginning.

Try to set your metronome at ca.120 bpm (the human beat) at stomp your foot on the one (beat one), then maybe one & two, one, two, three, four. Then play a bass note (ie open E) on the one with while you stomp your feet on one, two,three, four... 12bmp to fast? slow down to 80 or something.

It's importen to listen to songs too. Don't listen to extreme fast or complicated music. Do you like hip-hop or some R'nB kinda music? Country. These musicgenres usually have a strong clear beat. listen to alot on clap or stomp your feet to the backbeat (two and four) Don't force yourself, but just be "naturally" relaxed.

Don't if its gonna help you, but it works for alot of my students

TTveit.

[seventhframe]

SMACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There.

[john grey]

A great many people remember that movie about Mozart. He was a very gifted composer and in his environment, another person (who pretended to be his friend) was VERY jealous of his ability.

Mozart had thought this man to be his friend, yet he was not his friend at all! His jealousy was SO overpowering that he eventually pushed Mozart to working until he became very sick and eventually died.

Some people have gifts at various things. Some people just love those things and enjoy them at their level of expertise. The Arts are one example of things that are really made for enjoyment. One can listen to a great musician or view a beautiful painting or sculpture. One can attempt to express oneself through these mediums and have a great amount of satisfaction because they are doing those things for themselves.

However the only one who can give permission to enjoy an artful expression is oneself. If perfection is one's mission in life, it's only reality that there are very few people with gifts of such a nature that they rise higher than the majority. The majority of musicians are NOT great musicians. An Art's perfection is in it's appreciation because it IS an Art, it cannot be "perfect" or really anything but an expression of self.

To yearn for perfection is not "wrong" but it IS elusive because it is very difficult to be quantified. many people believe that when yearning for perfection gets in the way of enjoying a self expression, then it becomes less than a productive striving for improvement.

[maxgrant]

Are you looking at your bass while you play?

If so, stop. Look in a mirror. Close your eyes. Anywhere but on the neck of the bass.

Also learn a song that you have a recording of and play along with the recording. Real loud if you can.

You sound like you're focusing too sharply on the details, and not the overall picture.

[Diplowmatt]

Originally Posted by john grey

A great many people remember that movie about Mozart. He was a very gifted composer and in his environment, another person (who pretended to be his friend) was VERY jealous of his ability.

Mozart had thought this man to be his friend, yet he was not his friend at all! His jealousy was SO overpowering that he eventually pushed Mozart to working until he became very sick and eventually died.

Some people have gifts at various things. Some people just love those things and enjoy them at their level of expertise. The Arts are one example of things that are really made for enjoyment. One can listen to a great musician or view a beautiful painting or sculpture. One can attempt to express oneself through these mediums and have a great amount of satisfaction because they are doing those things for themselves.

However the only one who can give permission to enjoy an artful expression is oneself. If perfection is one's mission in life, it's only reality that there are very few people with gifts of such a nature that they rise higher than the majority. The majority of musicians are NOT great musicians. An Art's perfection is in it's appreciation because it IS an Art, it cannot be "perfect" or really anything but an expression of self.

To yearn for perfection is not "wrong" but it IS elusive because it is very difficult to be quantified. many people believe that when yearning for perfection gets in the way of enjoying a self expression, then it becomes less than a productive striving for improvement.

This x 1000

[oldcatfish]

Don't give up! I started off playing guitar in my late teens. Rhythm was far from my strong point. I intentionally worked at it for years though, and developed a reputation as a solid rhythm guitar player. Something else that helped me was playing along to backing tracks. That and playing acoustic guitar in church. All of that carried over to my bass playing. Other forum members gave great suggestions too.

[N.F.A.]

You will get lots of advice. I recommend this video for what you seek. It is John McLaughlin and Selvaganesh teaching Konokol, the classic Indian way of rhythm. Buy it anywhere, but here is the first link I found on a Google search. Oh, the dvd is called,"Gateway to Rhythm".
John Mclaughlin & S. Ganesh Vinayakram DVD Movie

[Thor]

Don't quit.

It is not unusual to set high expectations for oneself. Once you stop looking for self improvement, you won't improve. People who don't seek self improvement get complacent about where they are and stagnate musically.

You're going to hate me for this possibly, but here is the straight dope from my musical life. I am almost 60. I started on violin at 5, later guitar through HS and college. A year after I graduated, I took up the bass and this is my 36th year with the bass. There are plenty of times when I realize that I blew a change, or missed a note or made some other mistake. I am never totally satisfied with where I am. I can say I am a lot better than I was 10 years ago even.

With 2 years under your belt, you are just starting to realize the elements that need to be put together to get to where you want to be. Still, an hour a day is a lot, possibly too much. Getting better takes years, not weeks.

Welcome to our world.

[theretheyare]

Maybe you could take away your focus from the metronome for a while, and stop thinking in terms of what the bass is "supposed" to do.

Each of us has his/her own sense of time, and I would recommend looking at it like that, in order to to uncover your own way of negotiating time.

A metronome can be a helpful tool, but then the hardest swinging cats I know, never practiced with a metronome in all their lives, and they believe it would ruin their time if they did.. a metronome is not your time, and a metronome is not rhythm.

Find your our own time and have patience with yourself. Don't stop playing!

[Soul Power]

Try thinking about rhythm the way you think about sex. Imagine each part of a rhythm as if someone is touching you or you touching someone else. You have to feel know what a rhythm FEELS like.