Thoughts On Technique For Trios

Fajah · #1 10-15-2010, 06:32 AM

A little background:

My friend (and drummer) and I were in a blues band together with two other guitarists. I left the band some time ago and they decided to continue on as a trio. The rhythm guitar player moved to bass. My friend said that he doesn't like the sound nearly as much because when the guitar player takes his solos, the overall sound of the band is very thin. Especially when he does single line soloing as opposed to a chord melody approach.

Now the question:

Aside from the problem that the new bassist isn't really a bassist, it still got me thinking about the issue. So, I'm looking for some thoughts and/or opinions on whether you change your technical approach when is comes to playing in a 4+ piece band versus a trio.

Thanks in advance.

jgroh · #2 10-15-2010, 06:48 AM

Absolutely. I grew up mostly playing in trios or 4 pieces (3 instruments and a singer) and I learned that I had to fill in alot of space at times. I did it by being more melodic and incorporating things like harmonics and double stops/simple chords, especially when the guitar was soloing.

Then I took a long break from bands. When I got back into it, I joined a 6 piece and found I had to dial it back because it just got lost in with the 2 guitars and keys. In the last month our lead guitarist quit leaving just one, and Im finding that I have to fill more space again which feels natural to me. I didnt realize when I first joined a 2 guitarist band how much I would have to change my approach!

JimmyM · #3 10-15-2010, 10:42 AM

only slightly. a lot of the time i do the same thing i'd normally do. but i'll also fill in when i can with octaves or chords, and once in a while two handed tapping. but those approaches don't work for everything, so most of the time i don't do much different.

dvh · #4 10-15-2010, 10:52 AM

No. Whether its the DB or the EB I have basically one technique: two finger style. I have played with many combinations of other musicians over the years and I find the differences in my playing whether it's one other, two, or seven other people comes down to just listening and feeling it out and responding accordingly. I'm very lucky to have a strong rhythmic and harmonic sense, though.

Also, it would definitely sound thinner if the drummer was used to hearing the songs done as a four-piece...

wengr · #5 10-15-2010, 10:55 AM

great ideas already posted. I'll add, while it seems overly simple - play a bunch in the keys of A and E. it'll allow you do do what you do while often having a droning tonic. can fill it up a bit.

dave956 · #6 10-15-2010, 04:07 PM

Playing in trios (I play in a trio+vocalist, mainly classic rock) requires that you take up a lot of space sonically. In addition to putting down a solid groove I've always tried to do this with tone, also. I try to keep things really solid, even if i have to hang on the root a lot. (Ain't too proud to groove!). The other key for me is the tone and balance of my bass and amp. They take up a lot of space sonically, and it enables me to play in the upper registers even during a guitar solo should I need/want to. There is really not much drop off in punch when I do this, it's really liberating! Having enough midrange is critical, IMO.

In some ways I was more free to play advanced stuff in my old seven piece R&B band. Having a horn section was cool, I had a whole new sound to play underneath. Loved it.

So, groove, groove, groove and make that thing punch folks in the face!

Skitch it! · #7 10-15-2010, 04:43 PM

Double stops, tenth's a lot, harmonics, chords with an open string, octave slides/lines, volume pedal fade- ins, chorus/octaver. I like the space, it's great to have a wider spectrum that is considered 'legit' experimentation, but I try to suggest what another instrument would be playing if it where there, different flavours if available, but solid lines and fills are the basis, fill out the sound how you can and provide a solid bed, don't drop the groove, select complimentary specific tech/effect for that particular song and have fun at the same time imo.

stratovani · #8 10-15-2010, 10:01 PM

I've been playing in a Contemporary Christian band since last spring, and we started out as a 6-piece band, and due to circumstances we've recently become a three-piece. I'm loving it! I feel I have so much more freedom in what I can play than I ever did before. I have more sonic space to fill, so I'm doing long extended runs at times, but I always keep in mind that the groove comes first. I think that with a three-piece you have to pick and choose your spots. When our guitarist is singing, I tend to keep it simple, but segues into choruses, and guitar solos, that's when I cut loose! We've transformed ourselves from a power-pop band into a good old fashioned rock band!

Fajah · #9 10-16-2010, 06:06 AM

Guess it's time for me to jump back in and comment on everyone's interesting and informative responses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvh

whether it's one other, two, or seven other people comes down to just listening and feeling it out and responding accordingly.

IMO, this is the key to the whole deal. Whenever I've had the chance to play with a group a musicians (either in a formal band or jam session) where everyone possesses this ability, it's just so rewarding. Chops and technique aside, the ability to listen to what's going on around you and responding accordingly is to me the mark a good player regardless of the instrument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgroh

I learned that I had to fill in alot of space at times. I did it by being more melodic and incorporating things like harmonics and double stops/simple chords, especially when the guitar was soloing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

only slightly. a lot of the time i do the same thing i'd normally do. but i'll also fill in when i can with octaves or chords

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave956

In addition to putting down a solid groove I've always tried to do this with tone, also. I try to keep things really solid, even if i have to hang on the root a lot. (Ain't too proud to groove!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skitch it!

Double stops, tenth's a lot, harmonics, chords with an open string, octave slides/lines, volume pedal fade- ins, chorus/octaver. Solid lines and fills are the basis, fill out the sound how you can and provide a solid bed, don't drop the groove, select complimentary specific tech/effect for that particular song and have fun at the same time imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratovani

I have more sonic space to fill, so I'm doing long extended runs at times, but I always keep in mind that the groove comes first. I think that with a three-piece you have to pick and choose your spots. When our guitarist is singing, I tend to keep it simple, but segues into choruses, and guitar solos, that's when I cut loose!

The general consensus seems to be that "the groove" is first and foremost, which I subscribe to as well. In a trio situation when the guitar player starts soloing, that's when it becomes challenging. Everyone seems to be adjusting their technique to various degrees to fill in the "musical gaps". I can see that adding octaves, double stops, and some chords would work well. Fills would work but I think they have to be carefully deployed for depending on where and how you do it, it could make the overall sound even thinner and/or take away from the solo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave956

The other key for me is the tone and balance of my bass and amp. They take up a lot of space sonically, and it enables me to play in the upper registers even during a guitar solo should I need/want to.

I generally prefer to play mostly in the lower registers in a trio situation during guitar solos. Maybe I'll do a fill up higher, but it depends on the what type of solo the guitarist is doing. If it's more chordal, I feel like I have allot more freedom. If it's a single line solo, I'll stay low.

It's interesting that you mention tone. One might look to volume to take up space but I think that tone can as well depending on guitarist's playing style and the type of music.

I lean towards something like this for both tone and technique:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6-xT6d6gfs

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvh

it would definitely sound thinner if the drummer was used to hearing the songs done as a four-piece...

Yes, no question. Even more so considering the the current bass player doesn't really now what he's doing. Good keyboard and rhythm guitar player though

BillW87 · #10 10-17-2010, 02:06 PM

Love or hate their music, Rush is a textbook example of how a bass can effectively fill a lot of musical space in a trio setting while still using that space effectively. My advice as a bassist in a trio setting is not to think of things in terms of "everyone needs to play more stuff because there's fewer people" because you're just going to end up with clutter, but rather think of it as "everyone needs to make everything they play count, because it's definitely going to be heard".

I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak for this, and I'd like to qualify this statement as saying I'm a big Primus and Les Claypool fan, but IMHO Les Claypool is a good example of what NOT to do in a trio setting for the vast majority of bassists. They tend to approach their music as "we're a trio so everyone needs to play as many notes as possible in as little time as possible so that our music sounds full" and the only reason it works is because they're all sufficiently talented that they can force an inefficient method and still have it come together. However, for most bassists looking to work in a trio setting I highly suggest that they sit down and listen to Rush for a while and pay special attention to how Mr. Lee uses the concept of musical space in their music.

**Jerose** · #11 10-17-2010, 02:23 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7l7XfV_Pg

This video gets posted so often, but I still find it being one of the best examples of bass playing in a blues rock trio situation. Though Pino kills in pretty much any situation. It often helps when the bass AND the drummer put in towards filling the space.

stratovani · #12 10-17-2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillW87

Love or hate their music, Rush is a textbook example of how a bass can effectively fill a lot of musical space in a trio setting while still using that space effectively. My advice as a bassist in a trio setting is not to think of things in terms of "everyone needs to play more stuff because there's fewer people" because you're just going to end up with clutter, but rather think of it as "everyone needs to make everything they play count, because it's definitely going to be heard".

I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak for this, and I'd like to qualify this statement as saying I'm a big Primus and Les Claypool fan, but IMHO Les Claypool is a good example of what NOT to do in a trio setting for the vast majority of bassists. They tend to approach their music as "we're a trio so everyone needs to play as many notes as possible in as little time as possible so that our music sounds full" and the only reason it works is because they're all sufficiently talented that they can force an inefficient method and still have it come together. However, for most bassists looking to work in a trio setting I highly suggest that they sit down and listen to Rush for a while and pay special attention to how Mr. Lee uses the concept of musical space in their music.

^ This.

2400 · #13 10-19-2010, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerose

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm7l7XfV_Pg

This video gets posted so often, but I still find it being one of the best examples of bass playing in a blues rock trio situation. Though Pino kills in pretty much any situation. It often helps when the bass AND the drummer put in towards filling the space.

Great video. I'm in love with the man's hands.

rodl2005 · #14 10-19-2010, 01:59 AM

HAven't gone thru all the replies, but I've played in MANY trio's & as stated above- a slight volume boost-slight... Octaves.

Recently I tried using an EHX POG(or similar type pedal I s'pose) which adds an octave above yr bass note- can give the EFECT of a guitar doubling yr line. Takes some experimenting tho.

puddin tame · #15 10-19-2010, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillW87

Love or hate their music, Rush is a textbook example of how a bass can effectively fill a lot of musical space in a trio setting while still using that space effectively. My advice as a bassist in a trio setting is not to think of things in terms of "everyone needs to play more stuff because there's fewer people" because you're just going to end up with clutter, but rather think of it as "everyone needs to make everything they play count, because it's definitely going to be heard".

I'm probably going to catch a lot of flak for this, and I'd like to qualify this statement as saying I'm a big Primus and Les Claypool fan, but IMHO Les Claypool is a good example of what NOT to do in a trio setting for the vast majority of bassists. They tend to approach their music as "we're a trio so everyone needs to play as many notes as possible in as little time as possible so that our music sounds full" and the only reason it works is because they're all sufficiently talented that they can force an inefficient method and still have it come together. However, for most bassists looking to work in a trio setting I highly suggest that they sit down and listen to Rush for a while and pay special attention to how Mr. Lee uses the concept of musical space in their music.

Very interesting take. Also goes with the idea that silence is just as much of an element of music as the notes we play, so why spend all this effort trying fill it up so much?