Three Fingers - Fast string crossing problem!!

[5str]

Hello there my friends.
I am using the three fingers of my plucking hand (index-ring-middle) and it seems that this technique is really helping a lot.
Though, as I was trying to play some really fast stuff like "Into the fire - Firewind", "Beyond the dark sun - Wintersun", "Progenies of the great apocalypse - Dimmu Borgir" and so on, I found I've got a very serious problem:
The thing is that when playing those truly fast 16th notes or triplets, and it is required to immediately change string (mostly from lower to upper, not vice-versa) my fingers "get confused" about which finger's "turn" it is to pluck the next string.
So I am asking you people whether you could give me some good string crossing exercises to help me solve that finger problem.

Thank you in advance.

[Jason P Bass]

I practice this quite a lot myself, though I focus on crossing to a lower string. It is easy to make up your own drills for this - just pick an 8 note sequence that you play with the RMI pattern. Because 3 (fingers) and 8 (notes) are relatively prime, you will get 3 measures of 8th notes with 3 different finger patterns.


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---------11-12-11--------------
-9-11-12----------12-11--------
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This is the first measure from the Fight the Lion song "Let This Die". You can hear the track at Fight the Lion's website. (Shameless plug.)

It's a simple F#m run, but if you play it with a STRICT RMI pattern, you'll begin the first measure with the R, the second measure with the I, the third measure with the M, and then start over.

Play SLOWLY with a metronome, and gradually bump up the speed.

When you get bored of this pattern, pick another 8 note sequence and keep practicing. The important thing is to play 8 notes with 3 fingers so that you get 3 different fingering patterns.

The intro to "Let This Die" has 4 different runs like this, including some 3 string runs.

[EatADeadGoat]

Usually when playing at high speeds, when I know the switch is coming, I hit the 4th string with my index and ring, which leaves my middle in a good position to hit a higher string, and then continue from there.

[Fergie Fulton]

Part of the problem is the brain being "wired" to the 1.
Triplets and other 3/? divisible time sigs. excluded, the 1 on your technique is changing every bar so to speak. as you count, conciously or not, your fingers are developing a preferred way to move because you state you play Index, Middle, Ring ( I-M-R).

Playing music is not about ordered patterns its about playing the notes as required by any finger in any order, it is not about strict alternation. Look at this pattern and look at the order:
fig.1
1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3. You can see the pattern and it is in threes. here is the same patten in bars of four.
fig.2
1-2-3-1 2-3-1-2 3-1-2-3 1-2-3-1 etc.

Now you see the reality of the leading finger, the dominant one if you will, the one that wants to lead on the strong beat if the bar....it changes finger, and if you are crossing strings you will trip up if the leading finger finished a bar and wants to start a new one. Not a problem so much on single strings but a problem on crossing strings.

So simply practice starting on any finger and break this sequence. You have to stop practicing in a way that ingrains the 1-2-3 and practice in a way that does not bother with sequence but the next available finger required to play the music.

Here is fig.1 again;
1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3.

In reality the alternating numbers are alternating fingers, as surely as the are always following each other the only varible is where the 1 in the music occurs, not the 1 in the technique. So you have to learn to play for the music, not the technique.

So practice starting on any finger, or work out a scale practice and start it on a different finger each time to give the other fingers a chance to lead. Do this slowly and methodically. If you make a mistake carry on to the end, never stop and try and make it strictly alternating or you will ingrain the habit again.

When you listen to music you don't hear what fingers do what...you hear the notes.

Follow the link for some use ideas

3 Finger Techniques explained by Fergie on Myspace

[5str]

I never said I have that kind of habit. Actually any of my fingers lead, any of my fingers finish. It's not about that I can't put the index finger on the next string because it is the one that ended the previous bar. And I didn't say that I use 1-2-3. Actually I use 1-3-2.
And of course I am using the next finger possible, or perhaps I TRY to use the next available, but when crossing strings too fast that is when the problem occurs. So I am sorry Fergie but your exercise was not helpful for my problem. :/

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by 5str

I never said I have that kind of habit. Actually any of my fingers lead, any of my fingers finish. It's not about that I can't put the index finger on the next string because it is the one that ended the previous bar. And I didn't say that I use 1-2-3. Actually I use 1-3-2.
And of course I am using the next finger possible, or perhaps I TRY to use the next available, but when crossing strings too fast that is when the problem occurs. So I am sorry Fergie but your exercise was not helpful for my problem. :/

Sorry i assumed the 1-2-3 as an example of your fingering used, rather than realising you actually fingered 1-3-2. It is me saying it is a habit, not you. I see it a lot in players that try to work in patterns or shapes, it is a subconcious thing that happens, the player in doing such things actually makes it harder to develop a true independence of playing technique.

The fact you say

my fingers "get confused" about which finger's "turn" it is to pluck the next string.

was the essence of what i was saying about working out what you are playing with what finger and when.
To now say

Actually any of my fingers lead, any of my fingers finish.

confuses me further, because i would now assume that the fingers cannot trip over each other or be "confused" because any finger can handle the job of changing and the brain knows which finger is doing what in the plucking hand, so therefore no confusion should occur.

As i said any such exercise has to be done slow and deliberate, this will hard wire the brain to the movement required. It is about thinking it through slowly as you play. Then after a time the thinking is not needed because it becomes a subconcious reaction to playing. If it is a speed thing, then again slow is the way forward to learn speed.

It is not un-common for the fretting hand to favour certain fingers in the plucking hand to combine with in scale studies, songs or practice. This can also lead to problems as the plucking hand trips over the fretting hand when the "wrong or unfavoured fingers are used, leading a player to believe the plucking hand is the problem. Sometimes an injury to a finger occurs and another finger has to be used, this leads to a problem in the other hand as it is different to what the brain has hard wired as "learned".
Maybe your plucking hand is confused with what the fretting hand is doing and this sense of confusion you get is a momentery hesitation in the fretting hand that the plucking hand reacts to...giving you the feeling it is the fretting hand at fault or vica versa.
This is why slow and deliberate is needed to give you the time to see and feel what is happening, to realise what is wrong so you can correct it. This is why breaking exercises and scales down to interchanging pattens and numbers slowly, works, because you can compare results and feel what is going on.
By interchanging them you never really learn one way to play them, but you do learn different options and learn to cope with different fingering alternatives so the brain is comfortable with what is going on and does not cause doubt, that may lead to hesitation, that leads to a problem because in music any hesitation or doubt will lead to a timing issue as music is forever flowing, as is a good playing technique.

Again, i apoligise for not grasping your point or problem, good luck with a solution.

[azfryguy]

I was taught to play ring,middle and index. Try that maybe it will help you.

[5str]

Ok I now see your point. It seems that despite the fact that all three fingers can lead, the index, being the strongest of all needs to take the lead in the next string. I have to practise more on the "any finger start" thing, by beginning all songs with any finger.

And no reason for apologies. Just a misunderstantment

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by 5str

Ok I now see your point. It seems that despite the fact that all three fingers can lead, the index, being the strongest of all needs to take the lead in the next string. I have to practise more on the "any finger start" thing, by beginning all songs with any finger.

And no reason for apologies. Just a misunderstantment

No problems, its so hard to get ideas across in words that can be taken wrong. To summarise, also change the fretting hand fingerings to help the plucking hand not rely on where they are on the fretboard. As you say its about any finger on any hand being independant to do what you think, rather than react to what they have been ingrained to to. In some situations that ingrained skill is a plus because it can be relied on, but in developing new ideas and techniques it can be a problem to shake loose. Good luck with it all and keep us all posted on how you get on.

[Jason P Bass]

Originally Posted by 5str

Ok I now see your point. It seems that despite the fact that all three fingers can lead, the index, being the strongest of all needs to take the lead in the next string. I have to practise more on the "any finger start" thing, by beginning all songs with any finger.

And no reason for apologies. Just a misunderstantment

Instead of starting all songs with any finger, I would focus on drills that involve string crossings with each finger.

If you look back in my first response, a pattern of eight 8th notes will work. With an RMI pattern, the one beat of the first three measures will be played with R, I, M, and repeat. Any string crossings will have a sequence of R, I, M.

Here are four variations from the intro to Let This Die. Repeat each measure with a steady RMI pattern and you'll quickly identify which fingers are weak at string crossing.


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---------11-12-11--------
-9-11-12----------12-11--
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---------9-11-9----------
-9-11-12--------12-11----
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-9----9-11-12-11-9-------
---12--------------12---

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-9----9-11-12------------
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