Trouble learning songs

[Waspinators]

I've been playing for about 3 years, and when I jam to a song by following the chords and coming up with my own lines, I can back up a track pretty solidly as far as rhythm/groove. But when I actually try to learn a specific line or solo, all my shortcomings come flying onto my face. For example, I just tried to learn "Good Times Bad Times" by Led Zep, and can't even get past 15 seconds without completely tripping up. It's killing me 'cause I can never bring myself to join a band or anything because I'd have to learn a bunch of songs and find I can't handle them technically. What are some exercises I can do to improve my speed/dexterity and switching between trickier intervals, that'll allow me to take on at least most modern rock songs with ease?

[kreider204]

IME and all that ...

Other than some basic scale and arpeggio exercises when I was first learning bass, I never found exercises much help. My greatest strides in chops came from learning real songs. Start with songs as easy as you need them to be - old school punk worked for me. Then just start picking ever-so-slightly harder songs, and keep going. And don't move on to new songs until you've learned the old ones up and down. Other than that, there's really no trick to it. Slow and steady, and all that.

[16notes]

Your ears are a like a muscle that will strengthen with consistent work. Learning songs by ear comes easier for some than others; but keep at it and I have no doubt you'll get there!

Here are a few tips that should help...

1- Pick an easy melody you can sing/hum by ear already (ie Mary Had Little Lamb, Row Your Boat etc). Now sing it out load (slowly) and hunt until you find the notes. I know this is not hip; but it's the basic process of learning and playing songs by ear.

2- Study songs WITHOUT your bass until you can hear and sing back the lines. In general if you can't sing it; you can't play it. It's got to be internalized.

3- Start with simple songs and work in very small sections.

4- Once you learn the song play it slowly and work it up to speed.

Keep the faith and have FUN!

[Bobbo 77"]

Originally Posted by 16notes

Your ears are a like a muscle that will strengthen with consistent work. Learning songs by ear comes easier for some than others; but keep at it and I have no doubt you'll get there!

Here are a few tips that should help...

1- Pick an easy melody you can sing/hum by ear already (ie Mary Had Little Lamb, Row Your Boat etc). Now sing it out load (slowly) and hunt until you find the notes. I know this is not hip; but it's the basic process of learning and playing songs by ear.

2- Study songs WITHOUT your bass until you can hear and sing back the lines. In general if you can't sing it; you can't play it. It's got to be internalized.

3- Start with simple songs and work in very small sections.

4- Once you learn the song play it slowly and work it up to speed.

Keep the faith and have FUN!

these are the BEST tip's you can get!

[HeadyVan Halen]

Make notes on a sheet of paper of how long the intro/verse/chorus/bridge...etc is.

I was/am always a 'word' guy, in other words, the words of the song cue me to where we are, but some guys are 'counters' where they count measures..this is good when you start to learn a song, but I'd say you have to learn it the other way.

Secondly, what Kreider said. Playing a 1,000 scales won't make you a better muscian but it will give you the 'ability' to be a better musician. Your fingers should be able to do anything your brain asks them to do...that's a different kind of practice to me. Divide your practice into 'music practice' that is where your actually practicing what notes you like best/runs/fills etc, and then there is fitness practice where the notes mean nothing but you strengthen your hand and technique..

Keep workin' dude, you'll be alright

[jgroh]

What about taking some lessons? I took lessons for the first 3 years I played and Im so glad I did. It gave me the basics then I took it from there. I dont think I would have stuck with it back when I was 16 (Im 39 now) without that guidance.

But, what 16notes says is good advice. When I started out, I played along with all my favorite CDs and figured them out by ear. Eventually I could figure out basic lines just by hearing them without playing them on the bass, and even better, I could start to tell what notes were being played (roughly). Dont rely too much on tabs as a crutch, most of the ones Ive seen anyway arent that accurate.

[maxgrant]

Originally Posted by Bobbo 77"

these are the BEST tip's you can get!

Also, learn your solfege (do re mi) and learn to immediately identify the intervals. You have the do-re, a second, the do-mi, a third, the do-fa, etcetera. When I was learning theory, (which is immensely valuable for learning songs) I learned to associate those intervals with easy songs. The fourth is the "here comes the bride" interval, the fifth is the "star wars" interval, the sixth is "my bonnie lies over the ocean."

After you've done that and can easily and quickly identify the relationship of two notes, you will find learning new songs is a lot easier.

I also strongly recommend learning to play a scale in every key, major and minor, so that you can quickly map out the parts of the song you haven't heard yet. Very rarely will you encounter songs that don't stick to some semblance of a key.

[mintondm]

I know some people frown on it, but my best suggestion for learning covers and others work:

Guitar Pro

It's a tab/note program that has HUGE support out on the net. Almost any song you can think of has a file created for it. It's basically a Midi style audio setup, that has each track (guitar, bass, drums, vocals, ect) all broken out in Tab and note sheets.

The beauty of the program comes in when you can mute tracks, adjust volumes, and it even has a phase trainer. Basically, you highlight a section of the tab sheet, set the speed down to as slow as you want, and play note by note with it to learn the timing and the structures. This gives you a chance to determine finger placement, hand movement, and changes that work best for you and your hands abilities. It'll even increase speed for you gradually so that you can build speed through repetition. Works great when you take say, a chorus section of a song, set it at like 30% speed, and play it over and over and over, building up speed and proficiency. Move on to the next section, then start playing the whole song together, then around that time, I usually move over to playing along with the artists orig work to determine exact time changes and sound tweeks.

Guitar pro is GREAT and ussually the files are really accurate. Just look for the highest rated and most downloaded files to make sure you get good files. Worse comes to worse, even if it is a little off, you can get 95% of a song down from there and finish off the rest on your own! It's WELL worth the money and it's soooo much more than just a TAB or Midi program! Has made my cover song learning so much easier than just reading a tab sheet on some site somewhere...

[Bassdirty]

Tascam bass trainer.

I had the cd one..I hear the MP3 one is killer...and..more with the times I guess.

[Hutzbordello]

take your time

[Chasarms]

Originally Posted by maxgrant

Also, learn your solfege (do re mi) and learn to immediately identify the intervals. You have the do-re, a second, the do-mi, a third, the do-fa, etcetera. When I was learning theory, (which is immensely valuable for learning songs) I learned to associate those intervals with easy songs. The fourth is the "here comes the bride" interval, the fifth is the "star wars" interval, the sixth is "my bonnie lies over the ocean."

After you've done that and can easily and quickly identify the relationship of two notes, you will find learning new songs is a lot easier.

I also strongly recommend learning to play a scale in every key, major and minor, so that you can quickly map out the parts of the song you haven't heard yet. Very rarely will you encounter songs that don't stick to some semblance of a key.

This is VERY sound advise. I also struggled for a long time with learning tunes by ear, but it was suggested to me to focus on interval training. It made a HUGE impact on my ability to pick out tunes.

This is especially true in rock, country and other popular forms, as there are actually only a few, common intervals used for almost all of the tunes.

[bassbully]

Originally Posted by Bassdirty

Tascam bass trainer.

I had the cd one..I hear the MP3 one is killer...and..more with the times I guess.

+10,000. This was suggested to me when I first was attempting to learn allot of songs for a coverband years ago on TB by a Tb'er (thank You) I still have the first (CD) model and only use it to jam on late at night once in a while.

Download the sheet music (chord charts) to the song you need to learn. Notice I didn't say tab. I don't like tab and find it often wrong and it doesn't teach you anything other than where to put your fingers. Once you have the chord chart you can see the key of the song and follow the chord changes in the song. Most basslines are made of modes and scales of the chord and this is your guideline along with the bass trainer. the chord chart is the road map the trainer guides you thru the song. You need to also know your fretboard well to make this work so you are not hunting and pecking around.

[HeadyVan Halen]

Originally Posted by bassbully

+10,000. This was suggested to me when I first was attempting to learn allot of songs for a coverband years ago on TB by a Tb'er (thank You) I still have the first (CD) model and only use it to jam on late at night once in a while.

Download the sheet music (chord charts) to the song you need to learn. Notice I didn't say tab. I don't like tab and find it often wrong and it doesn't teach you anything other than where to put your fingers. Once you have the chord chart you can see the key of the song and follow the chord changes in the song. Most basslines are made of modes and scales of the chord and this is your guideline along with the bass trainer. the chord chart is the road map the trainer guides you thru the song. You need to also know your fretboard well to make this work so you are not hunting and pecking around.

Aw, man you gotta do that!
I became a 1,000% better player when I just played what I heard and was not handcuffed by scale or chord..I couldn't play Jazz forever because I thought I always had to use scale tones. Once I found out you can basically do anything you want as long as it sounds good, man that was it.

Once you start listening to the 'sound' and not where your hand is or what scale your playing, than I think your gettin' 'it'..

[Waspinators]

Thanks for the advice guys. I've tried the humming technique many times before, but somehow I always end up on the wrong key when I play it on the bass, and find myself using trial and error for way too long trying to figure out the first few notes. I just can't seem to pick out the notes by ear. Whenever I jam with people I always have to ask what chords they're playing rather than just jump in with a line. I'd really like to get lessons as I've had not one lesson in the three years I've been playing, but I don't know of too many good bass teachers around that don't charge a small fortune per hour.

[crow01]

I'll say set yourself a goal and work yourself up to get it.

For instance my goal has been being able to play "Donna Lee" from Jaco Pastorius songbook (tabbed obviously). Every time I listen to the song I freak out. Every time I try to play it from the tab I freak out even more.

This has been going on for 3 years.

I approached the divide and conquer method.

I played a whole lot of music by listening carefully and reading the tabs. And becoming proficient enough by playing a whole song. Let's say any famous RHCP song.

Then I go back to Jaco and try playing a bar here and there slowly. Then I go and read about music notation and go back to it.

I read a bar, and play it over and over again, increasing my speed. I take a break, then go back to it the next day.

Little by little I am learning to play that song at that speed-of-light- tempo.

Practice and Patience...that's all.

[BullHorn]

One tip is 'practice', the other is 'Start slow' and another one is 'practice'.

I find slowing down a song with Audacity helps.

[Spin Doctor]

Originally Posted by HeadyVan Halen

...I became a 1,000% better player when I just played what I heard and was not handcuffed by scale or chord...

This is really, really bad advice. Knowing (not just being aware they exist) scales and arpeggios is the difference between taking 10 minutes to learn a song and two days to learn the same song. It's never a good idea to not know what you are doing simply because you have the ability to chase notes. Everyone has that ability.

Originally Posted by HeadyVan Halen

...I couldn't play Jazz forever because I thought I always had to use scale tones..

Short cuts are the longest path of them all...

[HeadyVan Halen]

Originally Posted by Spin Doctor

This is really, really bad advice. Knowing (not just being aware they exist) scales and arpeggios is the difference between taking 10 minutes to learn a song and two days to learn the same song. It's never a good idea to not know what you are doing simply because you have the ability to chase notes. Everyone has that ability.



Short cuts are the longest path of them all...

This is after I learned scales,arpeggios, etc, Dr. Spin...The message I was attempting to convey is to learn as much as you can, learning is good, but when it's time to play it shouldn't sound like a music lesson. It should be time to play. As a matter of fact, 'chasin' notes' is what people do in my estimation, when they knew too much theory...they go after the 'complex' sound instead of 'good'...

By all means, learn-learn-practice-learn, but if you play major scales over changes when it's your turn to solo, it will get you far less gigs than sounding good..

[Infidelity]

Originally Posted by maxgrant

Also, learn your solfege (do re mi) and learn to immediately identify the intervals. You have the do-re, a second, the do-mi, a third, the do-fa, etcetera. When I was learning theory, (which is immensely valuable for learning songs) I learned to associate those intervals with easy songs. The fourth is the "here comes the bride" interval, the fifth is the "star wars" interval, the sixth is "my bonnie lies over the ocean."

After you've done that and can easily and quickly identify the relationship of two notes, you will find learning new songs is a lot easier.

I also strongly recommend learning to play a scale in every key, major and minor, so that you can quickly map out the parts of the song you haven't heard yet. Very rarely will you encounter songs that don't stick to some semblance of a key.

This! I hated it at first and I know you will too but this will not only help you playing by ear this will help you singing in tune also and that's a big plus.

[waveman]

Ok, I was in this boat for the longest time as a guitar player. I really didn't take the time the learn the songs, and I basically goofed off a whole lot. I could play scales like crazy, but always relied to heavily on tab, and didn't worry too much if it was really right. Anyway, I eventually got in a band as a rhythm player, and had to learn the parts correctly (or the best I could). I eventually got to where I could pick some inaccuracies within purchased tabs, or online tabs. It just takes time and a lot of practice.

Fast forward to now, where I decided Bass was really my natural instrument, since I always focused on Rhythm.

I still don't play some songs 100%, but I play them better than alot of other folks do, and I can pick out most parts by ear now. Simple songs don't take long, but more complicated ones do. The thing I started doing that really helped was that I would download the online tabs, and start with that. But what I also did, was re-tab them by hand in a spiral note book. For those songs that had alot of changes, I just kept going over and over it, until I figure out the change. For songs with a lot of notes, I would sometimes spend an hour just figuring out one progression, and writing that out in tab format, then just keep starting over and over from the start until I got it. I don't have to do that as much now, since I am past having to do that. But it takes time and practice to get to that point.


For example if I were to start learning "Good Times Bad Times" I would focus on learning it in chunks. Say start at 0:10 and stop at 0:20. Then break down the part from 0:20 to 0:25, and then from 0:25 to 0:30. Baby steps is the key to learning difficult songs. Tab each part as you learn it. I have sometimes spent 30 minutes or an hour or longer learning a 5 or 10 second part. And even after all of that, you may discover you didn't have it quite right. I have re-learned more than one song in my life