Tuning by ear or using a tuner?

[standupright]

Originally Posted by seanm

You can't get to 1 cent just using waves. They are too far apart at bass frequencies.

Try tuning, then use an accurate tuner (at least 1 cent). You might get one or two strings just by luck, but I bet you won't get all four within one cent.




Ok.... I admit in advance this is rigged The best anybody can do is 1 cent. The average person would probably only detect to within half a semitone, or about 25 cents. But let's say you are accurate to 1 cent.

You tune the first string, and are within one cent. The next string will be within one cent off the first, which could be one cent off. By the fourth string... even if you have basically "perfect" hearing... you can be off by four cents.

Where lowly old me with my TU-2 is only 3 cents off



And I realize this is all theoretical. Like I said... I doubt 90% can hear with 10 cents... so four cents is very good.

P.S. If anybody has some accurate numbers on hearing accuracy.... I would *love* to see them.

let's agree to disagree.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by standupright

let's agree to disagree.

Ok by me.

[atheos]

Tuner, always. It's convenient and super fast and best of all, I can tune while muted so I can tune in a middle of a gig if necessary. Doesn't mean that I can't tune by ear but then again, why should I? I mean, why walk if you can ride a bike?

Different thing with classical instruments of course, the slight detune of different orchestral instruments just makes the sound bigger but in pop/rock/jazz/anything with just a couple of instruments I really see no advantages in tuning by ear.

[standupright]

Originally Posted by seanm

Ok by me.

and by that i mean, i agree with you for the most part

[Deacon_Blues]

Check out this old thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f34/measure-your-pitch-perception-349051-post4443368/

It has a test on pitch perception accuracy.

[von buck]

I only use the tuner at gigs before we staI hate hearing guys tune up during a set
"gimme an E" and then hear the instrument trying to tune up.
Orchestra's do it only at the beginning and it's more of a tradition as well as making sure you have 50 guys in tune.
In the studio, I pull it out between each take.

Andy

[standupright]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Check out this old thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4443368

It has a test on pitch perception accuracy.

that was cool. as for how it compares to tuning, i play the reference note and the string being tuned at the same time.

[JTE]

I tune by ear (using either an A-440 fork, another instrument, or my tuner for a starting reference pitch) if I'm playing by myself or at rehearsals. At gigs, it's use the Boss TU-2. No one wants to pay to hear a band tune up, unless you're doing a Grateful Dead tribute band thing...

jte

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by Faxxxy

...If it's not perfect, I make it perfect before I play.

If you practice out of tune, even by a few cents, your ear will get used to hearing mud. You may be out of tune on stage and never know it because your ear is saying it sounds right to you...

I know being in tune matters a lot to you. I just thought I might point out a couple of things.

There is a quantity in Psychoacoustics known as the JND. The JND is the "Just Noticeable Difference" between two pitches that are supposed to be exactly the same but are not. It is the smallest difference you can hear.

Under the most optimal conditions, the JND for most musicians is at least 4 cents in the the middle range of musical sounds, which you might think of as the octave between A 440 and A 880.

Going lower, the JND gets bigger, as the number of Hertz between half steps also shrinks.

Add to that the fact that harmonic partials may be non-harmonic to a significant degree because the bass string, like the piano string, behaves a bit like a rod, not a string. They don't cue us "exactly" on the pitch of the waveform. Notice I say pitch, not frequency. Pitch is what we hear, frequency is a periodic waveform.


Bottom line: there are significant differences (> 10 cents) of pitch in the lower register that we bassists cannot perceive on our instruments. That does not mean you should not tune as well as you can. Remember regardless of pitch, e.g., low B or the highest fret on the G string, each semitone is 100 cents.

In addition, the fretboard is a compromise. If one thing is perfect, other things are not. This is way way major, IME.

Finally, what is "perfect?" IMHO, it is what not only sounds good, but it is also what is useful for working artists. We all know it when we hear it, but we can't easily specify it.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Check out this old thread:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4443368

It has a test on pitch perception accuracy.

Did this test three times again, and got this pretty good score twice (first time went slightly worse, 0,44Hz):

"At 500Hz, you can reliably differentiate two notes 0,2625 Hz apart"

What does this mean in cents? I'm not really sure how to calculate it myself. Just curious..

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Did this test three times again, and got this pretty good score twice (first time went slightly worse, 0,44Hz):

"At 500Hz, you can reliably differentiate two notes 0,2625 Hz apart"

What does this mean in cents? I'm not really sure how to calculate it myself. Just curious..

You are "hearing" 1.04 cents, according to the test you took. But that is the problem: the test. Never-the-less, your "score" is certainly in the same range as the typical 3 cents of the JND.

I recall having taken a similar test with one of my Acoustic professors as the investigator. I got something somewhat better than the typical JND, but he felt the error in the test was at least as big as my "win." Just my .02 cents,

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by bassrique

How many of you people put your chins on the upper horn to tune up every once in a while?

i too thought i was the only one to think of this. dont need an amp, let the sound ring through my whole head. theres no better way to tune a low B than to let it rattle your brain around. if you cant HEAR 31hz, you sure as hell can feel it.

[madbassplaya]

Originally Posted by phatbass

My opinion is use a tuner at gigs and things like auditions; it's silly to be precious in these situations, IMO.

When jamming/rehearsing or messing around at home, use your ears. Then maybe verify with a tuner. You should develop your ear 'coz there WILL come a time when you'll get stuck and have to tune by ear.

This is why I have an A 440 as one of the tones on my mobile phone.

Exactly what I was going to say.

[sonic assassin]

Originally Posted by von buck

In the studio, I pull it out between each take.

i tend to disagree here. sonic perfection is boring. if the first 3 passes of a rhythm guitar are off by a few cents, it will chorus, and sound human. i like that. they will all be ballpark, tuned to my ear, but i wont waste time trying to get guitars perfect with some superhuman tuner that is never satisfied. i had an expensive korg tuner tell me i was always just a little off. i couldnt hear it. one of the guys i was working with insisted on tuning between every take. i had them hit a full G chord, it was in tune, and i went about the session.

i can tell when one string is off enough to stop and tune, theres no point in unplugging, tuning, and going back.

[Smallmouth_Bass]

I think you have to learn to tune your instrument to a relative pitch and keep it in tune with itself as well as be able to recognize when it's out of tune. That must be a skill every musician has (well, maybe not a drummer ) before relying on a tuner.

I use a tuner exclusively now for a few reasons:
1) To be able to tune up in noisy environments.
2) They are more accurate than my ear, even though I can tune by ear well.
3) It does look/sound unprofessional to be tuning up at a gig out loud if you are able to do it with no sound.

[hbarcat]

Since I've gotten used to my basses and their own unique characteristics, I have become very good at tuning them to an accuracy better than any of the typical non-strobe type tuners are capable (usually 2-3 cents). But I've been playing 22 years and I regularly use my ears first, and being meticulous about each string, checking with harmonics and various intervals, and then I always re-check with the tuner (except on stage when I only use the silent tuner).

It is very rare for me to tune my bass by ear and then find that I need to make any correction at all after checking with the electronic tuner. But this degree of accuracy has only been possible for me after putting in the necessary years of effort.

And God himself couldn't tune a bass by ear to even close to the accuracy of my oscilloscope.

[smaughazard]

Tuners are great; I like to use one at home just to make sure that all of my basses are tuned the same.

However, I play a good bit of Celtic music. Since bagpipes use a non-standard A (usually around 470 but may run as high as 485) as well as a non-standard scale (roughly G, A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G, A, ignoring differences in pitch and tempering _ think Mixolydian mode and you'll be close), all I can do is tune to the piper. Pipes are also very sensitive to humidity, temperature, etc. so re-tuning is constantly necessary.

So: how do you get two pipers to play in tune? Shoot one!