Two injuries

[chaosinside]

Hi everyone,

as you can see, I'm new to this forum. I came here because it seems a good place to get some help regarding my technique. Besides, there aren't teachers where I live or nearby, so I'm learning on my own.

For a year, or so, I was hoping to get my hands on a Bass Guitar, and when my dream finally came true I decided to split the 2-3 hours per day I spend with Bass this way: half to learn new things, music theory, reading, etc. and the other half to practice exercises to improve my fingers dexterity.

After a month, I noticed one thing about my fingers, the little one was A LOT weaker than the other ones, so I switch the traditional routine with the "spider" and other exercises just to focus on my little finger. After a week, it began to hurt and now I realize that it was mainly because I stretched it a lot.

The other pain I'm feeling is on my left shoulder when I play standing. This only occurs whenever my left hand is on the 1st-5th frets. I feel like the bass is heavier . As I said, this only happens when I'm standing, when I'm sitting everything is ok.

Also, I have my Bass at a proper height.

Thanks to anyone who can read this and any help/advice will be highly appreciated.

EDIT: I forgot to say, my left hand hurts whenever I use it, I found a photo on google and then edited it with paint lol. In this photo I'm trying to show the area where it hurts.



Do you think I should stop playing Bass for a while? Or keep playing a lot more carefully?

Right now I haven't played for about 5 days.

[FenderPunk]

if your weak or have had any previous shoulder injuries that explains the shoulder, also your bass always seems kind of heavy when u first start playing. As for the finger just put your thumb on the pickup or string and use your forefinger and middle finger to pluck

[Fergie Fulton]

Check out the blogs

www.myspace.com/vintageprecisionbass

drop me a line if you have any questions.

[chaosinside]

Originally Posted by FenderPunk

if your weak or have had any previous shoulder injuries that explains the shoulder, also your bass always seems kind of heavy when u first start playing. As for the finger just put your thumb on the pickup or string and use your forefinger and middle finger to pluck

Thanks but the problem is on my left hand, not the plucking hand.

I've never had shoulder injuries before so I don't know why.

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Check out the blogs

www.myspace.com/vintageprecisionbass

drop me a line if you have any questions.

I'm checking them out. Thanks


Btw, as soon as I can get my hands on my camera again I will post some photos with my Bass, assuming that would help too.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by chaosinside

Thanks but the problem is on my left hand, not the plucking hand.

Btw, as soon as I can get my hands on my camera again I will post some photos with my Bass, assuming that would help too.

Pictures always help, but as you will find out, there maybe no simple answer to your problems, and i emphisis the maybe.

[chaosinside]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Pictures always help, but as you will find out, there maybe no simple answer to your problems, and i emphisis the maybe.

thanks for your support, i've been reading your blogs, there's a lot of good stuff there

[basmartin]

How is your string action? A good setup might help, but for know, rest until the pain goes away. If it doesn´t, go and see a doctor.

[All_¥our_Bass]

Also, is when you stand does your bass hang very low or higher up?
Is it at the same height (or a similar one) compared to when you are sitting?

[chaosinside]

Originally Posted by basmartin

How is your string action? A good setup might help, but for know, rest until the pain goes away. If it doesn´t, go and see a doctor.

I'm fairly new, but from what I've heard string action is the distance between the strings and the fretboard.

Originally Posted by All_¥our_Bass

Also, is when you stand does your bass hang very low or higher up?
Is it at the same height (or a similar one) compared to when you are sitting?

It's almost the same height, but when I'm sitting, I have trouble getting on those upper frets (i.e from 15 and on).

I have some photos too (lol):

Standing



Sitting



String action (?)




Thanks for all the support guys

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by chaosinside

I'm fairly new, but from what I've heard string action is the distance between the strings and the fretboard.



It's almost the same height, but when I'm sitting, I have trouble getting on those upper frets (i.e from 15 and on).

I have some photos too (lol):

Standing



Sitting



String action (?)




Thanks for all the support guys

Great stuff With the photos. Just to get an idea where your at and what your into, who are your favourite players and bands?

[Righteous Thunderer]

One thing that I did to help with some pain was instead of playing with the bass at a more traditional angle, I put the neck a bit more verticle allowing my wrist to not have to bend as severely (I have short fingers = crappy). Doing this not only helps with the wrist pain I had, but it also allows me to push more easlily with my pinky.

[Implosion]

In my opinion your wrist angle just screams for trouble. TB'er havic5 has a video that isn't on the topic but it demonstrates quite good the whole wrist angle thing.

[chaosinside]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Great stuff With the photos. Just to get an idea where your at and what your into, who are your favourite players and bands?

I have a wide range of musical taste, but I would like to play some sort of death metal.

Well, from time to time, I have fun viewing Billy Sheehan and Victor Wooten videos, so it could be say that they are my favourite players.

On the other hand, my left hand is hurting since I began to play on the lower frets (1-4), before that, I was playing from the 5th fret. That's why I believe the pain came due to stretching my hand.

Another thing is that I don't have a pain in my wrist, it's in the hand, but if people here say that I shouldn't have my wrist like that, I'll have to work on it then.

[Fergie Fulton]

Hi choasinside, in the standing photo you have awkward angles in your fretting hand. If you straighten your wrist by just pulling the elbow back, you will find your hands will be more in line with the neck rather than in front of it.

if you notice Billy Sheehans playing his wrist is straight to the line of his forearm and his wrist is under the neck suporting.
Billy demonstrates this best so have look at his playing and the points mentioned compared to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTd19...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTd19...eature=related

Victor is the same sort of thing look at how is wrist is in line with his forearm and the knuckles are under/behind the fretboard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUkET...eature=related

Hopefully now you can see the difference between them and you, and what they share in common?
Your hand hurts because it is not supported correct on the little finger side( an educated guess). Because your elbow is up you hand has to tilt the little finger side down.

Try it and see..hold you hand palm up elbow at the side. Move the elbow out an the the hand will turn. The wrist joint is not desiged to compensate this movement and keep the palm up. So as you get towards the nut on the bass the hand has to tilt. Thats why it is good to let the thumb go parallel or come over the top to the neck when it is down there, it supports the finger better at that angel of approach.

Ideal position for new players is to have the neck in the hand with the front edge of the fretboard in line with the knuckles.
That is if you were to make a straight line down the strings, throu the hand, the knuckles on the back of the hands would be on that line. This will keep the joints in line so they work better, the wrist will become straighter( because the elbow has to pull back, or point down), the finger will work in line and be supported.

To the last picture. Your thumb is out of line with the finger fretting the note, ( i appreciate this may be just a moment in time because of the picture). Again this is the angle of approach, It is a diagonal support if you look at your hand. The thumb, if in the up-right position should be directley across from the forefinger. The thumb can take any supporting position from parallel with the neck to up-right, to coming over the top to going underneath, but you should avoid letting any fingers get behind it (fingers closer to the nut than the thumb.) The thumb is the on the left of the fingers in the hand by design, so try and let it do so in playing.

That diagonal position will make it harder to access upper frets because the angles in your hand are effectively not in line with the neck and fretboard if you do it in that neck position as well. The little finger side may have to work harder, and that maybe why you have the pain you described in you hand?

The positions i have given you are restrictive that is all ( if you call Billy and Vics playing restrictive). If you need more access to the fretboard then that will develop with time. That is what playing is all about developing, you do not arrive at playing you develop it over years and years, refining it as you go. We are all different in the ranges of movement and flexability and what we like to play, hence all the questions earlier. Your movement is specific to you so you need to tailor it to suit what you have and want to do, it is always a comprimise. Hope this has helped.

[chaosinside]

i'm not home right now, but one brief question, anyone thinks that the thing that fergiefulton pointed out about my elbow could be causing my other "injury", the pain i have on my shoulder???

with my hand as shown on the standing photo i can feel some pain on my shoulder too and in that position is when i feel my bass so heavy

thanks again to everyone

[Randall]

2-3 hours a day might be a bit much for a new bass player . Maybe start out with a one hour session for a while and add more time as your body adjusts to playing the bass.

[Deathwatch]

about the practice time, if your new I'd play less time if I were you...you should get used to your instrument first before you play for that long...when I started playing I usually played for about 30 minutes or so...now that I've been playing for 3 years I can play for 1-3 hours without getting tired...and I would also play some easy songs...not Death Metal songs cause those are seriously hard, (I'd say try some Disturbed (Just to start out with))

[tobie]

Originally Posted by Randall

2-3 hours a day might be a bit much for a new bass player . Maybe start out with a one hour session for a while and add more time as your body adjusts to playing the bass.

++1. I've made that mistake during my first year of play (2hrs average practice per day). Long story short: I was forced to put the bass away Nov 2009 and only picked it up again this week. Now I'm back to 30 minutes a day, aiming to start off slowly this time. So far so good...

[C2C -2.0]

Originally Posted by chaosinside

i'm not home right now, but one brief question, anyone thinks that the thing that fergiefulton pointed out about my elbow could be causing my other "injury", the pain i have on my shoulder???

with my hand as shown on the standing photo i can feel some pain on my shoulder too and in that position is when i feel my bass so heavy

thanks again to everyone

If you look at the two photos side-by-side, you'll notice that while you're standing, your elbow (fretting hand) is extended further away from your body; thus: further away from your shoulder. Immediately, this creates a situation where your shoulder is not only doing its natural job of absorbing some of the weight of the instrument, but also acting as a pivot (or fulcrum) for all of the movement in your fretting hand. Pull your elbow in toward the side of your body a bit more; this should help to support your shoulder and lessen the movement that passes through it. If you're having trouble dealing with low notes in the first few frets, change the horizontal angle (up and down) of the neck. This way, you won't have to adjust your fretting hand (and your elbow) away from you; you'll simply have to adjust the height (vertical) of them. Also, when playing while sitting, your "lap" absorbs some of the weight of the instrument AND your elbow is naturally pulled in toward your body more. This seems to create the condition that you describe where your shoulder seems to ache only when you're standing.

To illustrate what I'm talking about, and to further substantiate that our shoulders are stubborn & finicky devices, fill up a glass of water (or grab a bottled water) and hold it in your fretting hand with your elbow pulled in toward the body & your hand kind of "in space" where it would normally be touching the neck. Hold this position for a couple of minutes. Next, holding the water still, move your elbow away such that your left arm is now in a posture that resembles how you've been playing while standing up. Do this also for two minutes. You'll notice that you're less comfortable in the second position than in the first. I know we don't "hold" the bass with our fretting hands, but for your purposes, just equate holding that water (load) with fretting the strings (activity). Either load, activity, or a combination of both put stress on your shoulder. The more unsupported your shoulder is, given the same amount of load/activity/both, the more stress it will experience.

Hope this helps! I'm new to playing bass also, but I have a bit of a background in physical pathology, so that's just my take on things.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by C2C -2.0

If you look at the two photos side-by-side, you'll notice that while you're standing, your elbow (fretting hand) is extended further away from your body; thus: further away from your shoulder. Immediately, this creates a situation where your shoulder is not only doing its natural job of absorbing some of the weight of the instrument, but also acting as a pivot (or fulcrum) for all of the movement in your fretting hand. Pull your elbow in toward the side of your body a bit more; this should help to support your shoulder and lessen the movement that passes through it. If you're having trouble dealing with low notes in the first few frets, change the horizontal angle (up and down) of the neck. This way, you won't have to adjust your fretting hand (and your elbow) away from you; you'll simply have to adjust the height (vertical) of them. Also, when playing while sitting, your "lap" absorbs some of the weight of the instrument AND your elbow is naturally pulled in toward your body more. This seems to create the condition that you describe where your shoulder seems to ache only when you're standing.

To illustrate what I'm talking about, and to further substantiate that our shoulders are stubborn & finicky devices, fill up a glass of water (or grab a bottled water) and hold it in your fretting hand with your elbow pulled in toward the body & your hand kind of "in space" where it would normally be touching the neck. Hold this position for a couple of minutes. Next, holding the water still, move your elbow away such that your left arm is now in a posture that resembles how you've been playing while standing up. Do this also for two minutes. You'll notice that you're less comfortable in the second position than in the first. I know we don't "hold" the bass with our fretting hands, but for your purposes, just equate holding that water (load) with fretting the strings (activity). Either load, activity, or a combination of both put stress on your shoulder. The more unsupported your shoulder is, given the same amount of load/activity/both, the more stress it will experience.

Hope this helps! I'm new to playing bass also, but I have a bit of a background in physical pathology, so that's just my take on things.

Great example so i will add futher with playing bass is a comprimize in body mechanics. The up-right bass and bass guitar were designed with very little thought of the ergonomics required to play. As a result we compensate body mechanics rather than change the instrument design. basses would be safer to play if they were designed like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLi8pOa6zYk

Body mechanics tell us the safest and strongest positions for the body are all tight to the torso. When threatend with injury the body pulls all limbs in, tucks the head in and protects the head with the arms.
The slight difference is in a trip or fall when the arms seem to flail and grasp at fresh air.
This may be a sub-concious reaction carried through our evolution in dormant gene or basic survival imprint instinct from our tree dwelling ancestors.
The grasping of fresh air may be just a instictive reaction to find branches or limbs to stop or break a fall from height. In any trip or fall the motion is to spread everything out, before impact it is to bring it all in and protect the head.