Using a pick - bend from the wrist or elbow???

[honza992]

After years of struggling with tendonitis I am finally giving up playing fingerstyle and am starting to play with a pick for the first time.

My physio (who is not a bass player) said that I should avoid plucking the string using a wrist-twisting motion, but instead keep my wrist locked and have all the movement coming from my elbow. Does this make sense? Is this how everyone else uses a pick? It doesn't seem at all natural to me and I can't get any kind of subtlety in my playing.

Advice (and encouragement) very much appreciated!

Edit:
I notice that Carol Kaye completely contradicts the advice given to me by my physio, saying that all the movement should come from the wrist. See tip no. 9 - http://www.carolkaye.com/www/education/tips1.htm Now I really am confused!

[Stingray_EB]

Your going to loose alot of technique and playability if you restrict your self to bending with your elbow. I would suggest slowly pushing the use of your wrist but take breaks every so often so you never ache or tighten up. I just dont feel that you would be happy playing the way that has been suggested to you. Unless your playing speedy root note punk exclusivley I cant imagine that its a good idea to restrict yourself to that particular technique.

[Uncle Ernie]

OTOH the doctor said... perhaps you'll be able to develop the technique.

[Stingray_EB]

True , but I cant imagine it ever being possible to play anything close to the likes of Rush or anything that involves that kind of playing. Of course that may not be your style ? what kind of music do you play ?

[capnsandwich]

When using a pick there's not a lot of movement of the wrist. It's just a slight rotation of maybe an inch, two if you're playing harder, that is if you're plucking correctly. There's much more movement involved when playing with your elbow and you will also lack feel and accuracy that way also. My suggestion is to give it a try and if it starts bothering you then switch to using your elbow.

[Vynns]

Ey man,

I'm not an authority on pickplaying, but this is what my guitar teacher used to tell me (I switched from git to bass):

When playing with a pick, bend your indexfinger, put your thumb on that and your pick between. Now, if you hold it like that, you can move the pick, simply by stretching and bending your thumb (Keep the pick on the first digit of the index, higher and you'll restrict your movement). So you'd actually be playing with minimal wrist or elbow movement, just your fingers. I usually anchor my pinky under my bridge pick-up (j-style pu btw), rest my whatchamacallit, the soft part on the side of your hand opposite my thumb and below my pinky, on the bridge and take it from there.

This way, you can put a lot of dynamics in your playing, because you have a lot of delicate control over your stroke. (hehehe.... I said "stroke" ...)
And if you'd be playing Motorhead or something, you always have the option of picking more from your wrist, elbow, shoulder or hell, from your knees.

Anyhoo, when I switched to bass, I found that this technique works fine in general playing, only the hjeavy mjetahl I wanted to play demanded a little more... Shall we say, moxy. So I use a little more of my wrist nowadays, but mostly it's still fingers.

Now, I have no idea what the deal is with your fingers, so, if it hurts, stop it. Unless you're into pain. It's okay. We're all grown-ups here.

I may be making absolutely no sense to you, or be really unclear in what I mean. Just ask, I'll try to explain it better, when I'm less drunk. Uhuhuhu. Maybe make a picture or two, I don't know. Good luck with your playing anyway dude!

Heiho Silver, aweigh!
VRRRROOOOOOOOOOOoooooommmmmmmmmm......

[troyus]

I primarily go at it with a pick... and it is 'all in the wrist'. I keep my wrist bent, the wrist handles control on anything outside of the simplest material.

I know some guys who go the elbow route, but their technique is sloppy and they are really limited technically by that. You just can't get enough control playing from that "far" away. Galloping and arpeggiated chords will sound messy.

There's been a few recording sessions where I was playing for 5-6 hours straight of technical punk (that is tiring) and my wrist started feeling like it fell in a bag of needles, but other than that, it's worked out well.

Ummmm here's a picture...

[chimpbass]

When I play with a pick, I use a rotary motion similar to "proper" slap technique. As in, rotate your forearm, don't move it up and down.

[michaelmwong]

I am a classically trained violinist (my younger days) and then a bass guitar player (14years) and now *cough* guitar player (3 years) and also happen to be a doctor

my 2c worth:

1. think of anything you use to make a sound on an instrument (pick or bow) as an extension of your body

2. use the minimal muscle tension and movement required to achieve the sound you want

3. expect that your technique will develop over time - you may initially use a lot of wrist movement, then later more elbow movement, then settle on what feels right to you. to say that there is no movement of either your wrist or your elbow is unhelpful and unnatural

4. when learning a new technique try to avoid over-practising - the muscles required are likely different to what you've used before. Over-working can in fact delay your progress. You will know you have worked too much when you start to stiffen up or feel pain. If this happens, immediately rest for about 20-30secs and stretch, then restart practising. Sometimes after the short break you will realise that you had some tension, say in your right neck and shoulder. If after a couple of minutes you still have pain on starting again, stop or practise a different technique that doesn't bring on the same symptoms.

[pasta4lnch]

Mine is kinda a combination of rotating the fore arm and the thumb first finger thing. maybe the elbow when I'm vigorously strumming an acoustic guitar . . . fwiw I have some issues w/ my hands and, oddly, it hurts me more to play w/ a pick

[crazyguy832]

Instead of rotating your wrist, move it side to side (like you're waving).

It's a little weird getting used to, but it's way easier on the wrist!

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by capnsandwich

When using a pick there's not a lot of movement of the wrist. It's just a slight rotation of maybe an inch, two if you're playing harder, that is if you're plucking correctly.

Right. I've been using a pick off and on for years, pick quite well, and have never had to use my wrist very extensively. In fact, I've always picked mostly from the elbow, and it's worked just fine for me.

Try to take your doctor's advice, take it easy on the wrist, and see what you can achieve picking mostly from the elbow. You might just be surprised with what you can do...if you give it half a chance...

MM

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by honza992

My physio (who is not a bass player) said that I should avoid plucking the string using a wrist-twisting motion, but instead keep my wrist locked and have all the movement coming from my elbow. Does this make sense?

Not at all. I'd find another doctor. Here, try this: pick an easy tempo, maybe 100 bpm, and play 16ths from the elbow until it hurts. I don't think it should take more than a minute or two of your time. I suppose its possible that your doc has secret knowledge that has somehow eluded the people who actually spend hours at a time doing this, but Carol's technique is by far the best to my knowledge. A tiny twist of the forearm, and a tiny movement of the hand to the side.

Are the problems with your wrist such that attempting normal technique would be dangerous? In that case, it might be better to play from the elbow, even though it's problematic. If your physio is just suggesting it on general principle, I'd think hard before following his advice. But I don't want to tell you not to listen to him if your injury makes using proper technique unwise.

It almost seems like he's coming from a "bigger joints are sturdier" angle, which is true in general but neglects the reciprocating nature and short distance of the movement. Why don't you ask him about it, and ask him if he knows any bass-playing physios you could get a second opinion from (or find some yourself — they're more qualified than us or your doc to answer this question).

[MellowTone]

Thought I'd chuck in my two cents.

Firstly, my bass teacher, who has been playing for over thirty years, said that most of the movemnt should come from your elbow (or whole arm). Yes, there will be some movemnt in your wrist, but the majority should come from your arm. Work in an eliptical pattern, diagonal to the strings. From this, you should be able to creat whatever nuances you want and have total control. Of course, this technique takes time to learn and, at first, you may experience some discomfort, but it takes time to build up the muscle and get used to this motion. Just think of when you first had to build up strength in your hand for fretting.

Also, I would be inclined to listen to the person with a PhD (physios have them, right?) If your physio said that was the best way, I assume it has a medical benifit and I would heed that advice, you don't want to cripple yourself from that playing style.

Of course, all IMHO.

[Ampeg SVT]

When I use a pick i use a combination of elbow and wrist movements. My picking style looks like Nate Mendel's (he is my bass idol), it consists of alternate picking and sometimes steady downstrokes.

I suggest getting your wrist loosened up and kind of get a certain feel to picking, there is no wrong way to do it, but some ways are better than some.

Also with alternate picking you can control notes a little more (IMO), a good example of some interesting alternate picking is John Campbell from LOG, and Nate Mendel of Foo Fighters.

Using your elbow isnt bad, Jason Newstead does that and it works for him. I think it would be harder to master but it will probably give more attack but it may require some left hand muting. Now a way that i wouldnt suggest you use your elbow is like Pete Wentz from Fall Out Boy.

[honza992]

Everyone - THANKS SO MUCH for the replies, that's given me lots and lots to think about.

In general terms my physio says that repetitive strain injuries occur when very small movements are repeated at speed. She says that because of this you want to be using the biggest muscle groups to do the moving, reducing the chances of causing injury.

I'll try out the techniques that have been suggested and update the thread as I progress. If anyone else wants to throw in their opinion PLEASE DO. I value both the advice and the support!
John.

[Qvist]

Jason Newsted uses that technique, and he can play pretty damn fast, so it's just a matter of practice

[Skapunkgiz]

Ive always used a pick (dabbed in using fingers a little) - find i use a mixture -

for instance, there is no way i could play the faster alt picking without using my wrist...

Also i love to mimic guitarist's down stroke up stroke effect for things like ska. Some times throw in a few chord shapes for good measure...

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by honza992

In general terms my physio says that repetitive strain injuries occur when very small movements are repeated at speed. She says that because of this you want to be using the biggest muscle groups to do the moving, reducing the chances of causing injury.

I think she's overlooking the amount of inertia your whole forearm has compared to the amount your hand has, especially when the motion is created with a combination of the "key turn" motion and a hand wave. It's very gentle on the joints, compared to jerking your arm around from the elbow.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by MellowTone

Thought I'd chuck in my two cents.

Firstly, my bass teacher, who has been playing for over thirty years, said that most of the movemnt should come from your elbow (or whole arm). Yes, there will be some movemnt in your wrist, but the majority should come from your arm. Work in an eliptical pattern, diagonal to the strings. From this, you should be able to creat whatever nuances you want and have total control. Of course, this technique takes time to learn and, at first, you may experience some discomfort, but it takes time to build up the muscle and get used to this motion. Just think of when you first had to build up strength in your hand for fretting.

Also, I would be inclined to listen to the person with a PhD (physios have them, right?) If your physio said that was the best way, I assume it has a medical benifit and I would heed that advice, you don't want to cripple yourself from that playing style.

Of course, all IMHO.

There ya go. There's your answer...

MM