Walking bass....Will i ever learn?

[Lanso3000]

ive been playing jazz for a few years and have just been getting by with walking, but the problem is i dont know what scale to walk off for each chord. can anyone help me?

[pedro]

I do not play bass but I would strongly encourage to ask Lyn Seaton who has a forum here on talkbass. He might be able to recommend some books or videos to help. I would think a good teacher would be even better.

[manutabora]

Just outlining chords (using only chord tones) is a good way to start, imo. After that, you need to consider larger harmonic units, not just each chord by itself. For example, is the chord part of a 2-5-1? Then that will determine the scale that you can use to walk your line.
I am no expert, I've only been playing jazz for two years, but that's what my teacher (a sax player) and other extremely helpful musicians have suggested. I hope it helps!

[Mushroo]

Listen to some great jazz recordings and transcribe bass lines by your favorite players. That is the best way to build your vocabulary. You need to develop your ears so that you know what sounds good and what doesn't. Good luck!

[Lanso3000]

yeah my band teacher tryed to reach me 2-5-1 but he realy doesnt know anything and i guess i just never got to learning it. but yeah a lot of the songs i play are in a 2-5-1 so thanks, i will look into that

[kingbee]

At this point it sounds like you should just stick to using the key of the song for your scales rather than using altered scales for each measure.

In addition to playing off of chord tones using arpeggios and triads, just try walking stepwise through the scale to get to the root of the next chord. If the next chord is only a third or fourth away, you either have to play some chromatic notes in between those steps or go past the new root and come back. Like if you're going to the fourth, you can play 1-2-3-5 and then hit the 4 on the downbeat of the next measure. Or you can go 1-2-b3-3-4, or 1-b2-2-3-4, or 1-b7-6-5-4.

As was said above, you should really spend lots of time listening and transcribing good jazz bass by players you like. Also, getting a good teacher is invaluable.

[pedro]

Again I recommend a direct question to Lyn Seaton. He's a well respected jazz bass educator/performer and a member of Talkbass. Perhaps he can even recommend an instructor in your area.

[Lanso3000]

Originally Posted by kingbee

At this point it sounds like you should just stick to using the key of the song for your scales rather than using altered scales for each measure.

In addition to playing off of chord tones using arpeggios and triads, just try walking stepwise through the scale to get to the root of the next chord. If the next chord is only a third or fourth away, you either have to play some chromatic notes in between those steps or go past the new root and come back. Like if you're going to the fourth, you can play 1-2-3-5 and then hit the 4 on the downbeat of the next measure. Or you can go 1-2-b3-3-4, or 1-b2-2-3-4, or 1-b7-6-5-4.

As was said above, you should really spend lots of time listening and transcribing good jazz bass by players you like. Also, getting a good teacher is invaluable.

Well i know how to walk into another chord, realy its just looking at the chords written out on a chart and just hahving my brain shut down.
O.K. so i have the chart for autumn leaves and it goes Am7, D9, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, F#7b5, B7 ,Em7 ,Em7. how would u walk over that?

[azureblue]

Am7, D9, Gmaj7, Cmaj7, F#7b5, B7 ,Em7 ,Em7

Walking. everybody does it different. you can walk from principle chord members, from scales, from chord substitutions, by direction, linking atonal intervals.

But to use Autumn Fleas, I mean Leaves..
The first three chords are a ii / V7/ 1

to walk it like a newbie, play the tonics on one and fill with principle chord members on the rest of the beats:
like A C E G / D F# A / C G B D F#
Ugh

By scale:
A B C E / D E F# A / G A B D
Still ugh, but better

Now use passing tones:
A B C C# / D E F F# / G A B C
Better... but still square

All of these are ascending patterns..


Now mix up direction up and down:
A G F# E / D C B A / G B C C# D

Still pretty predictable

Now forget scales and look for interesting intervals- leaps and half step motions and begin with the third of A minor:
C B C C# / D up to C B A / G drop an octave down to F#, then up to A then down to G

Much more interesting


Now what do the first six chords have in common?
What do they not have in common? in the D9 and G maj7 chord- note the common tone- F#. See how that note leads you to the next progression? Note how the F#b5 can be viewed as a tri tone to Cmaj7, if you ignore the third. Now look at the B7 chord and see how it introduces scale wise a C# / and re introduces the F#. Now Em7 is the relative minor to C, with the introduction of the F# as the second scale degree.

Ok now see that the F# is common to almost all the chords, except for the C.

This is what you can call you pivot note. Create a walk that uses the F# for emphasis. Hit is on the upbeat and downbeat.

Now you have the first steps for creating interesting walking lines: Chord structure (and chord substitution) and common tone analysis.
Never look at a jazz tune as a bunch of individual chords. Look at them in groups and see what is happening between the chords- focus on going from chord to chord and watching for what you can substitute for the progression....

Also:

Learn to play the melody! look for where you can hit notes that are in the melody or harmonize with the melody. Learn to incorporate the melody into your waling lines.

Walking is anything but boring. It is a musical chess game that you play, playing off of the other players. Never never walk in a vacuum. Listen to what the other players are doing and work your lines in with theirs. Your lines can make or break a soloist and the tune. remember that always. Know when to be inside and when to be outside and when to stay on the bottom and when to go up high, when to step out of 4/4 and when not to.

Take the from a guy that has been playing music for over 50 years- you will never walk a tune the same way twice. Keep your ears open and you will always find something new to do to it. Even if it is "Autumn Fleas" I mean Leaves..

[Jazzman]

I hate to interject, but I must ask...how have you been playing jazz for a few years without knowing how to walk over a chart?

[pedro]

Here you go.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f163/

[azureblue]

I have met great readers who can sight read a jazz chart, but barely know what to do when it comes to improv. I think the original poster was probably being honest. At least he knows his limitations... I still can't say I really know how to play jazz. Maybe in a couple of years....

[Jazzman]

Originally Posted by azureblue

I have met great readers who can sight read a jazz chart, but barely know what to do when it comes to improv. I think the original poster was probably being honest. At least he knows his limitations... I still can't say I really know how to play jazz. Maybe in a couple of years....

Thanks. I am not trying to be derogatory or anything, I am/was honestly curious. I did not think of the reading bass lines approach...but I guess that is a possibility.

[Lanso3000]

well i would play for my school and my teacher just told me to play this and that, he never taught me anything. now im just going off what i learned by myself, its realy hard

azureblue thanks for the very detailed answer

[pedro]

I am a great believer in lessons with a good teacher if at all possible. As I said, Mr. Seaton maybe able to turn you on to someone good in your area or if can't afford lessons perhaps he can at least recommend some books.

[E2daGGurl]

I'm using that book by Ed Friedland - Building Walking Bass Lines. I'm applying what I know to Autumn Leaves (doesn't everyone?) and a couple of other songs. I'm using passing tones and I'm just at the point where I use both ascending and descending lines (sometimes a bit incoherently). The leap to finding pivot notes, described so well above by Azureblue (thanks for that - you have no idea how helpful it is) just got through my skull about a week ago - but not from the book, from using the book and then listening to what I'm playing and doing just what Azureblue says (figuring out what notes the chords have in common). I didn't know they were called pivot notes until I read this thread.

No one told me it would take mad analysis skills to play bass.

I totally love it.

I sight read, so I can always go back to playing the melody if I've got the chart - but that sometimes results in a more humorous version of Autumn Leaves or whatever it is, especially when I practice with a singer. But Azureblue is right - incorporating bits of the actual melody in new and different ways is a lot of fun.

P.S. The Friedland book is pretty good at teaching that 2-5-1 business (or ii-V-I business)

To the OP: where are you stuck? With Autumn Leaves, for example - did you already know it was a ii-V7-1? Or did Azureblue just teach you that? Pedro keeps encouraging you to seek Lyn's help, but I find many of the better teachers here are talking over my head most of the time - I'm getting there, but yeah, it's slow. Maybe you'd feel more confident approaching Lyn if you knew your basics (which you may actually know - but the lingo isn't there). I know that's how I am.

[azureblue]

Jazzman- Didn't even think you were being derogatory -S'OK. I have played in a lot of big bands where the parts are note for note, and this was up to Thad Jones material. I rarely got room to stretch out..... But I used it as a learning experience- why did the arranger want those notes played?

Lanso- Glad to be of help. And I will be glad to help you via PM, if you need it. gotta get off line and back to practicing...

[azureblue]

pivot notes may not be right term, but I got this from my college bass teacher- a pitch that you build you walking line around. the line pivots around this pitch. What's cool is when you can create a line with the high note of each phrase creating a descending scale, no matter what the chords are.


Mad chord analysis rules! :-). Wait until you are lucky enough to find a guitar or piano player who really knows inversions and substitutions, and all this will open up to you like heaven's gate. A tune becomes an adventure in spontaneous composition, done on the fly by all the players. Once that happens to you, the grin will not leave your face for days...

[SBassman]

The thread can help a bit - but just a bit.

You need a book - and a teacher.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Lanso3000

ive been playing jazz for a few years and have just been getting by with walking, but the problem is i dont know what scale to walk off for each chord. can anyone help me?

If you want to use scales it depends on the duration of the chords.
The best use of scales is definetely in a ii-v-i progression either in Major or in minor on a 4 bars phrase. Dmin7|G7|CMaj|CMaj|| or Dmin7(b5)|G7(b9)|Cmin|Cmin||. In a major tonality you will use the major scale of the i chord (C major) and in minor you will use the minor harmonic of the i chord (C min har.)

Now play the descending scale of the major key on the root of the ii chord : D-C-B-A then you are on the second chord on the root of that chord an go on G-F-E-D and land on the root of the i and go up the scale C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C and you are back to your starting point if you need too. Do the same thing with C min harmonic on a ii-v in minor.

That's it!

For more let me know,

Sylvain