Walk'n All Over...Is there a scale in there?

[davecanady]

Just like what all the old jazz players do on the stand-up bass, and songs like Moon Dance where the 1/4 notes just keep coming.... is there a scale being used? Are there instructions books for this style. I can't believe it's all by ear.

[Billnc]

Chord tones, and methods to get from one chord tone to the next, very little use of scales. It's really not thathard to do, and the most fun. Ed Friedland and Ed Fuqua have written excellent books. It is an improvisational method of playing, so it is all by ear.

[MalcolmAmos]

Not familar with Moon Dance. Is this it? http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/...ndance_crd.htm

If so you could play chord tones - or yes there is a scale in there - all the chords fit into Am. So Am would be your scale. But I doubt you would use it. Chord tones seem the way to go.

Bass line from chord tones:
Am = R-b3-5-b3
Bm/sus4 = As this is a slash chord I suspect an E note would work.
Am7 = R-b3-5-b7
Bm7 = R-b3-5-b7
Dm7 = R-b3-5-b7
E7... = R-3-5-b7
Etc, etc, etc. Play as much of the chord tone as needed.

Ask specific questions.

[Stick_Player]

methods to get from one chord tone to the next, very little use of scales

I think it's ALL about scales - ascending and descending. Incorporating chromaticism, chord tones more often on the strong beats, nonchord tones (passing tones) on weak beats or up beats.

Understanding voice leading will get you to the next harmony while supporting the current harmony.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

I think it's ALL about scales - ascending and descending. Incorporating chromaticism, chord tones more often on the strong beats, nonchord tones (passing tones) on weak beats or up beats.

Understanding voice leading will get you to the next harmony while supporting the current harmony.

But you MUST know very well that you are leading to the chord tones. Bashing around on an A minor scale isn't going to cut it. Devices like enclosure and the double chromatic approach don't really require much scale knowledge.

Could be a difference in training (I get the impression in theory we may be on the same page) I was taught to walk starting on only chord tones (to 7th degree) then using leading tones to the new chord then the other approaches. Since our job is to outline the harmony, no matter how much chromtaicism, scales or devices we use this seems sound.

[Ed Fuqua]

BigEgioHead has another idea....

[Stick_Player]

But you MUST know very well that you are leading to the chord tones.

Absolutely! You MUST know all the chord tones - instantly. You must also know the key center that you are in - instantly. And then know and apply the appropriate scale AND non-scale tones to construct a well-functioning bass line.

I also believe that, with a well constructed bass line, the harmony/chords should be very apparent.

And, if you can add in implied harmony and substitutions...

My two-bits.

[davecanady]

@ Malcolm - Yes, that is the Moon Dance. It's a beautiful song from the 70's that mixed Jazz chords in a Pop configuration.

@Bill - I will have to make a run to the local GC. The smaller shops in my area didn't have any books with more than a page or two on the subject. I will look for those two names

Even though I play guitar and a little piano, you all have thrown some terms out here that I will have to review. I understand the major and minor harmonies and a couple of the most common scales. I had not run across the terms double chromatic. I can guess what a passing tone is but it would be nice to quantify it.

Thank you for your thoughts. I clearly have my work cut out for me.

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by davecanady

@ Malcolm - Yes, that is the Moon Dance. It's a beautiful song from the 70's that mixed Jazz chords in a Pop configuration.

@Bill - I will have to make a run to the local GC. The smaller shops in my area didn't have any books with more than a page or two on the subject. I will look for those two names

Even though I play guitar and a little piano, you all have thrown some terms out here that I will have to review. I understand the major and minor harmonies and a couple of the most common scales. I had not run across the terms double chromatic. I can guess what a passing tone is but it would be nice to quantify it.

Thank you for your thoughts. I clearly have my work cut out for me.

Yes, Moondance is indeed a lovely song. I'm fairly new to walking bass myself, and now that I know a little more about it, I have being transcribing the lines in this song. Every time I play Moondance, I'm struck by how beautiful the lines are.

As well as the two books by the two Ed's, you might like to check out Todd Johnson's DVD's (see link). I have both volumes, and found them great.


http://cgi.ebay.com/TODD-JOHNSON-WAL...item5ada44972c

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Not familar with Moon Dance.

Specially for you Malcolm !




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNsmF9JTpuI

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by davecanady

Just like what all the old jazz players do on the stand-up bass, and songs like Moon Dance where the 1/4 notes just keep coming.... is there a scale being used? Are there instructions books for this style. I can't believe it's all by ear.

In answer to the actual question asked, I would say that it is far more about knowing chords and joining them together - scale tones can be inserted, but it is definitely not a case of just playing up and down a scale!

Some Jazz players do it all by ear and that's no doubt how the first players did it - but most people nowadays learn by studying which notes are in which chords, how those relate, their function in the sequence and different inversions of the chords etc etc stuff like that, which becomes a lifetime's study!

Ed's book is a great starting place for that study !!

[dvh]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

In answer to the actual question asked, I would say that it is far more about knowing chords and joining them together - scale tones can be inserted, but it is definitely not a case of just playing up and down a scale!

I see this debate between scales vs. chord tones all the time and can't help but think it comes down to semantics and/or intent.

Moondance, for example: you could, conceivably, walk around within the Am scale for pretty much the whole song and it would (mostly) fit because the chord tones for most of the song's chords are within that scale. (NOTE: I don't just mean walking up and down the scale - though, again, in theory it would work). It may not be the most musical way to do it...

Even in a song with less "connected" chords, your walking lines might be able to be seen as 'superlocrian +9'. I just made that up but, know what I mean?

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by dvh

I see this debate between scales vs. chord tones all the time and can't help but think it comes down to semantics and/or intent.

My reason for being on the chord tone side of the debate.
First, they always work. 2. you can lead to any chord tone chromatically, these notes may fall under a few different scales. 3. You can substitute chords, no point at all in thinking scales there. 4.The chord tones give you specific notes to target. 5. If you know a scale but don't know your chord tones I'm almost positive garbage will come out of the line, you could be implying any of the other 7 chords derived from the scale, with no control.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by Billnc

5. If you know a scale but don't know your chord tones I'm almost positive garbage will come out of the line, you could be implying any of the other 7 chords derived from the scale, with no control.

Except the other rhythm instruments could clarify that (but I know - I agree with you...)

[Stick_Player]

Except the other rhythm instruments could clarify that (but I know - I agree with you...)

Sting made an astute observation, I'll paraphrase: "If Andy plays a 'C chord' and I play a D, it's no longer a 'C chord'."

It's so important what pitches the bass plays.

* * * *

Interesting excerpts from "WALKING BASSICS, The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing, by swinging NY bassist Ed Fuqua"

However, one would need to be somewhat of an advanced musician to understand some of the pitch selections from this excerpt:



Good stuff!

[Stick_Player]

I forgot to add, concerning the above excerpt, ms. 12 and 22, the "Ab"s should probably be notated as "G#"s.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Billnc

My reason for being on the chord tone side of the debate.
First, they always work. 2. you can lead to any chord tone chromatically, these notes may fall under a few different scales. 3. You can substitute chords, no point at all in thinking scales there. 4.The chord tones give you specific notes to target. 5. If you know a scale but don't know your chord tones I'm almost positive garbage will come out of the line, you could be implying any of the other 7 chords derived from the scale, with no control.

I agree with all these points but would summarise it like this - as bass players, it is our job when accompanying to outline the chord progression; not just noodle about on notional scales...

[Slax]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

BigEgioHead has another idea....

Thanks for the link Ed. I've been meaning to buy your book for a while. Just sent my order in now.

[dvh]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

Sting made an astute observation, I'll paraphrase: "If Andy plays a 'C chord' and I play a D, it's no longer a 'C chord'."

It's so important what pitches the bass plays.

It depends on where he plays it, IMO...

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I agree with all these points but would summarise it like this - as bass players, it is our job when accompanying to outline the chord progression; not just noodle about on notional scales...

Yes, I agree we are to outline the chord progression, and be comfortable enough with our scales that non chord tones creep in where needed.

It's magic when they just materialize. Had that happen for the first time during our last gig. I almost lost the beat it was such a happening.

Like most things it's a combination of both.