Weight lifting and finger speed?

[jamisonsalamand]

This seemed like the best forum for this question, but if it's not, I apologize.

I was wondering if weight lifting could affect my ability to gain finger speed in both my right and left hands. I am mostly doing bicep, tricep, and shoulder workouts every other day(with free weights), but don't know how this will affect my ability to develop finger speed as there is a lot of forearm work as well.

[joe vegas]

certainly not. been training hard off & on for 25 years, and strength training w/ free weights has never been an impediment to speed and agility. actually, the opposite has been the case- my bi's, forearms and fingers are stronger, faster and more coordinated, with a substantial endurance increase. i would suggest you maybe cut arm and shoulder work down a bit, though, to give everything time to repair and strengthen properly. maybe try a month of every-4th-day for your full arm/shoulder routine, and see how they respond.

[anonymous122511]

It's been proven that a non player can wiggle his fingers just as fast as a very accomplished player. The difference is the accomplished player can hear where his fingers need to go to make music. Speed is much more a mental issue than a physical one. If you know the music really well you can play fast, if you don't you can't.

[JimiLL]

Nope

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

It's been proven that a non player can wiggle his fingers just as fast as a very accomplished player. The difference is the accomplished player can hear where his fingers need to go to make music. Speed is much more a mental issue than a physical one. If you know the music really well you can play fast, if you don't you can't.

100% truth.

[flyingfinbar]

It could only help. I train my grips by doing pull ups from a towel thrown over a standard pull up bar.


On a side note, for best workout results, try to do exercises that incorporate larger groups of muscles, such as squats, benchpress, deadlifts, pull ups, etc. You will see faster, bigger gains Good luck!

[hrodbert696]

I have a guitarist friend who's dealing with some pretty severe tendonitis now, and points to not only his playing but his workout regimen as a contributing factor. Stretch out carefully and consistently!

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

I have a guitarist friend who's dealing with some pretty severe tendonitis now, and points to not only his playing but his workout regimen as a contributing factor. Stretch out carefully and consistently!

I'll do a series of stretches, also have a tennis ball and foam roll. I'll put the tennis ball on the floor and find muscle knots etc. I take anything I find pretty seriously, the bad problems start somewhere, and it's best to find and treat them early. Live and learn, I've had some pretty bad experiences with back, shoulders
and elbows over the years.

[Fergie Fulton]

This issue is a straight relation to the type of exercise and training. As a rule the answer is no do not do any weight training unless you understand twitch response.
In weight training and exercise gyms this may be know as
Plyometric training.

Any type of weight exercise that need to to hold will develop in to a grip, because it has to. If you are lifting weights, you will develop stronger forearms and biceps. This means you can lift more or exercise for longer so the hands have to be stronger so that means a development of muscle fibres to hold and this means no speed. Simple visual, who is faster a weight lifter or a gymnast?

Each both do long hours of training each day but body shapes and abilities are different in terms of reaction, and that what finger speed is reaction...controlled reaction.

So why the difference between the two?
It is the way the Muscle fibres are targeted and what we call Twitch Response. Each muscle has different fibres to do different jobs for us. These can be split in to two different groups called twitch response. Slow twitch response (sometimes called a long twitch ) is what gives the muscle its power and stamina, fast twitch (sometimes called a short twitch) response is what gives it is speed and reaction.

In standing still every muscle in your body uses more of the slow twitch response to hold you there and in posture. Without it you would collapse to the ground in a heap, this response from the muscles stops when you go to sleep and the same effect would be present in sleep paralysis. This is where you brain "turns off" the muscles to stop you acting out a dream, but in some they awake before the brain has turned on the muscles and so are paralysed till it does. In other the brain will turn on the muscles while asleep so others will walk, talk, and act out dreams.

Standing requires a slow twitch response, but moving requires a fast twitch response. Both come from the same muscle but use a different fibre in that muscle for the task. That is why the weight lifter and the gymnast have a different shape, they target different areas with in the muscle.

So to the point, holding on to the weights is the key area here.
You cannot lift what you cannot hold. So if you develop a hold... that is a grip and the opposite of what is required to play any guitar. In guitar the speed cone from lifting fingers out the way to allows others to come in and fret the notes. obviously if the finger is slow getting out the way then no matter how fast the other finger is at closing down on the fretboard the will clash. Many young new players routinely identify the finger coming on as the problem, not the finger in the way. So the target the wrong type of action to improve and make it worse.

For anyone that uses there hands in lifting and holding, they have to be aware that the action of lifting and holding is the opposite required to play guitar. Yes many will cite different but what they cannot cite is the difference if they had never done any training, so no real comparison can be made, as can the health of the person and any underlying genetic factors.
What we do have is the quantifiable proof and evidence of targeting and training muscle groups and medical knowledge and know how of how and why they work, as well as the knowledge to repair damage to them. The more we understand and learn the better this knowledge and treatment becomes.

Remember that no matter what you do the smallest bones and muscles cannot compete with larger ones, the hands can only develop so much reaction (fast twitch) before they will cir cum to the forearm and biceps need for power and stamina (a grip). Regardless of the finger the links are the weak points.
For us as players that means the wrist, elbow and shoulder they are the weak links in all this, if they cannot take it then it is all for nothing, and you find that out in later life not as you are doing it.

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

This issue is a straight relation to the type of exercise and training. As a rule the answer is no do not do any weight training unless you understand twitch response.

And even when you do understand twitch response realize that how much of it you have is largely what you are born with. The people who will notice benefits from training it will already be functioning in their endeavor at an extremely high level. Stamina on your instrument (best worked on bass in hand) will take you a lot further playing music than will fast twitch.

[jaywa]

I used to weight train extremely rigorously... the whole nine yards, lifting 5 times a week, creatine, protein shakes and egg whites... hardcore.

Then I got married (and poor) and I haven't lifted for about 8 or 9 years now. I'm pretty much the same quality of player without weight training as I was when I was lifting... I just don't look quite as good on stage.

I would say that the most important conditioning you can actually do as a bassist is on core strength... your abs and back. I've seen more older guys put of the music game from back trouble than every other part of the body combined. Drummers and bassists especially.

[fourstringburn]

Speed is much more a mental issue than a physical one. If you know the music really well you can play fast, if you don't you can't.

+1

There is a lot to be said for that...It can be just as challenging to play slow and melodic.

[fourstringburn]

When I was taking music lessons, I was told by my teacher to decide if I want to lift weights and play sports or be a musician. Basically He believed lifting weights will be detrimental because your hands and fingers may tighten up and to play any instrument for that matter, you need your hands relaxed. Also I was told to refrain from cracking your knuckles.

There probably isn't no scientific evidence to support these claims , but it did makes sense to me then.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

I have a guitarist friend who's dealing with some pretty severe tendonitis now, and points to not only his playing but his workout regimen as a contributing factor. Stretch out carefully and consistently!

Stetching is part of it, as is control of movements/technique in the gym. But tendonitis isn't 100% avoidable. Muscle tissue develops quicker than your tendons. So it is relatively easy to increase muscle strength quicker than your tendons can cope!

[makkE]

Since I do a regular simple workout (push-ups, pull-ups, squats, and some "bad back exercises"), I have noticed benefits in grip strength and endurance in bass playing.
Now I know I should not need much strength to fret anyway (and I work on using as little as possible), my medium action and heavy gauge strings (Labella 760fm) still demand some basic strength.
It certainly didn't make me play any faster, but doesn't slow me down either.

@fourstringburn:

I think your teacher was a bit radical there. Maybe heavy lifting or karate or boxing don't mix well with music playing, but for any other sport I see not much that could hurt playing an instrument (as long as it's done moderately.)

[jaywa]

I would think the discipline and mental aspect of the martial arts would be tremendously beneficial for a musician as long as you don't bust up your hands doing it.

[azureblue]

Always use padded gloves. If you can get wrist straps - the kind that go around the bar and then loop around your wrist, use them too. They will take the stress off of your fingers and move it to your wrist, especially when doing pull ups. If you can, hold the weight across the palm of your hand, with curled in fingers (fingertips against the palm of your hand). Try not to squeeze your grip, if you are holding the weight with your fingers.

The issue is primarily finger agility, not strength. What slows down your fingers is the squeezing of the weight during the set, so you want to try to avoid that. When you play a string instrument, you need agility from all the finger joints, not just from the base of the finger. I found that what slows me down in my playing, is getting stiff in the middle joint of the finger, so I work to keep that loose and flexible.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by fourstringburn

When I was taking music lessons, I was told by my teacher to decide if I want to lift weights and play sports or be a musician. Basically He believed lifting weights will be detrimental because your hands and fingers may tighten up and to play any instrument for that matter, you need your hands relaxed. Also I was told to refrain from cracking your knuckles.

There probably isn't no scientific evidence to support these claims , but it did makes sense to me then.

There is room for both. Perhaps that philosophy is why so many musicians are out of shape.
To my thinking it is far smarter to be aerobically healthy, maintain body (and core) strength and full body movement. An hour a day exercise if probably very good advice. I understand grip issues, but strength is very important to vitality.

Besides, I'm tired of carrying others gear!

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

Stamina on your instrument (best worked on bass in hand) will take you a lot further playing music than will fast twitch.

The answer this point is no, because you have confused the response, stamina is a slow twitch response not a fast twitch.
All movement starts out as a fast twitch response ( reaction ) it then becomes stamina (slow twitch) when done for to long.

Originally Posted by fourstringburn

There probably isn't no scientific evidence to support these claims , but it did makes sense to me then.

all the things in your post are true to extents and there is plenty of scientific, medical, and anecdotal evidence to support it...your teacher was on the right tracks.

Originally Posted by Billnc

There is room for both. Perhaps that philosophy is why so many musicians are out of shape.
To my thinking it is far smarter to be aerobically healthy, maintain body (and core) strength and full body movement. An hour a day exercise if probably very good advice. I understand grip issues, but strength is very important to vitality.

Besides, I'm tired of carrying others gear!

And this is part of it, the idea you do not need to be fit to play. You need to be fit to cope with it.
Many injuries are cause by misuse and over use.
Students and younger plater spend far to much time on the instrument and not enough on learning the other things that go with playing..ie the mental side of theory, sight reading etc.
That's why 20 minutes playing in each hour is more than enough for new players.Read and learn what you are going to do. This task makes your mind clear in what you are doing so makes the task easier. Spend 20 minutes learning on the bass, the physical side will be easier because you have no doubts or hesitating in what you are trying to learn. Then repeat and keep repeating the lesson or new lessons in this way and the player will develop as a balanced fluent player.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by azureblue

Always use padded gloves. If you can get wrist straps - the kind that go around the bar and then loop around your wrist, use them too. They will take the stress off of your fingers and move it to your wrist, especially when doing pull ups. If you can, hold the weight across the palm of your hand, with curled in fingers (fingertips against the palm of your hand). Try not to squeeze your grip, if you are holding the weight with your fingers.

The issue is primarily finger agility, not strength. What slows down your fingers is the squeezing of the weight during the set, so you want to try to avoid that. When you play a string instrument, you need agility from all the finger joints, not just from the base of the finger. I found that what slows me down in my playing, is getting stiff in the middle joint of the finger, so I work to keep that loose and flexible.

If you are really stiffening up, you need to do more flexibility work/stretching. (only use wrist straps when your grip is failing, but I guess the gym does take priority over bass for me )