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  #41  
Old 05-09-2009, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by junerig View Post
Is this written in harmolodics?


For starters smarty the Harmolodic clef looks like a figure 8.






And for those who may be interested.

Taken from here.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1



This article originally appeared in JazzTimes Volume 25/Number 10, published December 1995.



Ornette Coleman: To be very honest, America is a very young country. 95% of all the art and the intelligence we experience is not founded in the culture of America. We have been brought up in America with information of so many viewpoints of class, viewpoints of poverty, ethnicity. Since music is one of the main ingredients of people’s happiness, it has always been defined by these viewpoints. Europe is a composer’s society, not the improvised society America is. Because of the word ‘jazz,’ America is more of an improvised society. When you think of classical, jazz, folk, or ethnic music, most people think in racial terms rather than in descriptions of what they like. You don’t describe things you like by race; you describe them with the words that show how you recognize what it is and who put it together. But in music, rock represents white, jazz represents black, classical music represents Europeans, and on down the line. But all the music that’s played in America is really played with the same exact notes that come from the European system. It’s five years from the year 2000 and I don’t think any ethnic group, regardless of how it relates to its and past and its roots, is getting their full freedom of expression in this system. For me, America represents a concept of achieving a civilization. That concept is built on the concept of how Europeans brought themselves from cave dwellers to scientists, and how Africans and other people raised their consciousness. Yet, for some reason America builds a caste system in the business concept. It’s a way to avoid relationships with other races and enjoying creativity from outside their identity. The puzzle covers more territory than just sound, but that’s its meaning in dealing with music.

How does harmolodics take on this caste system in sound?

Harmolodics is a base of expanding the melody, the harmonic structure, the rhythm, and above all the free improvised structure of a composition beyond what they would be if they were just played as a regular 2-5-1 structure, or if they were played with the concept of a melody having a certain arrangement to know when to start and stop. In other words, harmolodic music is equivalent to “the” being “die” in German, or “bread” being “pain” in French. It’s like saying, “Give ma some pain” when you’re hungry. So, harmolodics is a way to describe and use information that has identical meaning but sounds like two different words at the same time. When you hear the guitar, the bass, and everyone else play what is called their tone dialing sounds, they are not so much playing different notes as they are playing their own tones, a form of the notes they have been given in the clef that they read. Basically, what you are doing in harmolodics is relying on the basic information that goes into composing, playing, and improvising on forms. You are relying on everything you have experienced as shapes and forms and sounds. Everything in the room that you’re in is made from the earth, but it’s not just soil. If a word means something else in another language, and it’s spelled and sounds the same, that’s very harmolodic. So, when you’re able to play like that, it expresses what sounds could be if they weren’t programmed to represent a certain territory. It has to do with what you base a concept of unity on. Unity in Europe comes from shared territories, not like America where unity is created out of shared conditions.

Harmolodics has a flexibility that the European stereotypes don’t have.

At one point, Europeans had a moveable C. France had its own C. Every country had its own C. It changed according to territory.

But the European forms become standardized, if not static, whereas harmolodics’ translation and referencing of information allows musicians to change the form of a composition each time is it performed.

Take the Bach piece. When I was putting together a new Prime Time band, I went to the Manhattan School of Music and they told me about Chris Rosenberg the classical guitar player. So, I met with him and asked him what was his favorite classical piece, and he said the Bach Prelude. I asked him to play it and then I asked him to play it again, and I improvised on my horn, harmolodically. So, you can hear the true essence of harmolodics in the Bach piece. Chris plays the identical notes, the same thing, twice, back to back. But, when the whole band comes in, its sounds like he’s playing some kind of harmony or changes. Yet he’s playing the same melody. The melody hasn’t changed; it’s been heightened so that you can compare how new information makes the use of a form more clear. What we call melody, harmony, and changes are titles that were applied to a certain growth in music at a certain point in time. I don’t have new words for what those words mean, but I have found how not to let those terms affect something that I found that enhances what those terms can mean. Harmolodics doesn’t changes something from its original state. It expresses the information a melody has within its structure without taking it apart to find out why its sounds that way.

So, hearing harmolodics is analogous to, say, having a brilliant orange canvas on a wall by itself, and experiencing the pure color. Then, you place an intense green canvas next to it. The orange hasn’t changed, just our experience of it, vibrating against the green.

That’s getting close. When you play the piano you’re playing in the G clef, that’s the treble clef, but the soprano, alto, tenor, and the bass clefs are independent of the treble clef. If you take the soprano C, which is on the E line, you take the bass C, which is on the second space, the alto C, which is on the third line, and the tenor C, which is on the fourth line, you’ll have A, B, D, and E. Now, the B natural that’s on the treble clef is totally independent from those four notes, therefore most people transposing those voices to the treble clef are not transposing the natural notes of the unison. That’s why you have harmony, changes, and improvising, because the treble clef doesn’t transpose, it’s only for range. If you have A, B, D, and E in the bass clef, you would be reading C, D, F, and G. In the treble clef, when you play A, B, D, and E, that A is C, the B is a C for alto, the a C for the tenor, and the E is the C for the soprano. So, it’s not really four different notes, it’s the same four notes. So, therefore it’s deceiving to believe that the piano is the transposed clef for all voices. What it really does is uses those four words to make harmonies, keys, and chords. The treble clef does not have a pure voice. If I asked you to play the soprano G natural on the piano, that’s C natural for the treble clef. C natural for the soprano would be E. You can’t hear those as voices, so you call them chords and keys. In harmolodics, those four voices are transposed into one voice. For instance, the A, B, D, and E would be B, C, E, and F on the alto clef, and G, A, C, and D on the tenor clef. The same notes. So, you have a different unison for the same notes. When the piano was invented it destroyed the natural concert C for every country and made the treble clef the range for those Cs to be transposed into keys and chords. What I’m trying to express is that everyone has used those keys and chords and everyone that plays a melody that uses a 2-5-1, even if it’s a new melody, it doesn’t sound like it has gone anywhere. It just sounds like a sequence. When I’m speaking to you about the caste system, it’s not just a racial point or a musical point, I’m really talking about a civilization concept. Let’s face it. There’s only been five men on the planet that weren’t looking for a job -- Buddha, Christ, Confucius, Mohammed, and Moses. They weren’t looking for a job because they were looking for a higher consciousness. If music and art has a consciousness, it shouldn’t be from a caste point of view.

It shouldn’t be about paying the man.

That’s what I’m saying. Think of the word “minority,” not in terms of race, but in relating to information. There are more minorities than there are people who control information. That’s why I’ve written a theory book about harmolodics. I’ve finished it about ten times and it’s time now to close it down and get it out. Someone may tell you that B and F are a flatted fifth apart, but they’re also the major seventh of C and F#. But, they don’t sound like that when you play them back to back. Your information may be limited, but the way you use the information doesn’t have to be limited. Your tone will cause you to change any note to the way you hear it. Your relationship to your tone is based on your emotions. If it wasn’t, everybody would sound the same. When you play something and you hear you own tone, that’s tone dialing. That’s you. If you create music just from the concept of your own tone, you will be doing something no one else has discovered. It’s not impossible.
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Last edited by JAUQO III-X : 05-09-2009 at 02:55 PM.
  #42  
Old 05-09-2009, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X View Post
?
Wow what a question

i think that it's quite complicated, and the only person that might really actually know is ornette coleman - isn't it a term he coined to describe his own approach?

I think it might be quite a kind of esoteric thing that is almost impossible to pin down. A bit like Jerry Leake has this thing called 'Harmonic Time' which is linked to all his philosophy of how he sees rhythm. That's quite interesting actually Jerry Leake is quite a badass. Check that out if you're into way out stuff.
  #43  
Old 05-09-2009, 06:18 PM
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Interesting stuff...subscribed.
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  #44  
Old 05-10-2009, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X View Post
With all due respect do you know this to be fact?

Have you spent time deciphering Harmolodics or learning it?


12 tone compositional technique are like genre differences when there really are(differences).
I was merely pointing out/observing that conceptually at least, there's an attempt to free up and create equal emphasis on many multi-faceted parts to a composition of improvisation. A lot like 12 tone composition in the early 20th C tried to create equal emphasis on all 12 notes. I just feel Harmolodics takes it a couple of steps further. No, I haven't studied it BTW, but it doesn't mean that the concept is beyond grasp or understanding. I personally have no use for it, but all kudos to those that do.

Plus: I have studied 12 tone composition at university level (some years ago I might add) and have add such compositions performed by ensembles and the like. So I do have some understanding of that at least. But that doesn't make me an expert obviously as it no longer has a use in my life. The concepts presented are certainly interesting, and I immediately saw a conceptual comparison between the two approaches, even though the two approaches yield very different results. It is after all, just MY opinion, so you have to take it on face value. It doesn't make it fact, right or wrong - it just is. I may well be wrong as I usually am with most things
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Last edited by derrenleepoole : 05-10-2009 at 04:08 AM. Reason: Missed a bit.
  #45  
Old 05-10-2009, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrenleepoole View Post
I haven't studied it BTW, but it doesn't mean that the concept is beyond grasp or understanding.

It's not at all.
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  #46  
Old 05-11-2009, 01:38 AM
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thanks for the info, much appreciated.
  #47  
Old 05-12-2009, 02:45 AM
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Well, I was encouraged to post this here soo here it is:

[E-mail]

Soo, Iīve been reading the interview with Coleman posted on that thread about the hamolodic bass lines again and again and this is what I could digest soo far:

"...all the music that’s played in America is really played with the same exact notes that come from the European system. It’s five years from the year 2000 and I don’t think any ethnic group, regardless of how it relates to its and past and its roots, is getting their full freedom of expression in this system. For me, America represents a concept of achieving a civilization. That concept is built on the concept of how Europeans brought themselves from cave dwellers to scientists, and how Africans and other people raised their consciousness. Yet, for some reason America builds a caste system in the business concept. It’s a way to avoid relationships with other races and enjoying creativity from outside their identity. The puzzle covers more territory than just sound, but that’s its meaning in dealing with music."

Soo, Coleman starts by first talking about identity (before the quote), making some very valid points. But things start to get interesting when he ponts out this: "...music that’s played in America is really played with the same exact notes that come from the European system.", and then he tells us how he thinks that noone is getting access to full freedom of expression with this system. I think the key here is the statement that nobody, regardless of how the system relates to their origins is getting the access to freedom of expression with it (the system).
Now my question, before we discuss more about this interview, is: What does Coleman mean by the word system? At first I thought about notation, tonalism and the tempered scale (European system), but then, with all the influences modifing American music as time goes by, maybe it isnīt that simple and he is talking about more than that...

[/E-Mail]

Ohh, and to answer to the original question, althrought I canīt say exacly what it is because I couldīt yet figured out what the word harmolodic means (and it can mean more than one thing), my current opinion is that a harmolodic bass line is (among many other thing I donīt know it also is) a suportive device for a form (or song) that doesnīt follow the traditional system of organizing sounds as to create music. I hope that makes any sense
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Right, but also there weren't a lot of electric bass guitars before electricity either. :)

Last edited by Banana_phone : 05-12-2009 at 02:47 AM. Reason: Format
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