Where’s the groove?

[malicous]

I really need to vent regarding a frustration that I have been experiencing for a while, and maybe try to understand the situation more.
As on numerous occasions in the past, last night I played a gig where my band played the first set and another group did the second set. After our set, I went into the audience and sat down to (hopefully) enjoy the next band’s set. Unfortunately, the bass player of the other band was terrible! When I heard him warming up (he was playing some interesting licks with 32nds and what not), things sounded very promising, and I was looking forward to an interesting show. But, alas, in the first few measures of the first song I knew that this guy suffers from the same malady that so many other amateur bassists I have heard suffer from: poor timing. I am trying to understand this phenomenon. This guy, and many other guys like him that I have seen in the past, obviously spend time practicing in order to do all that cool stuff that he did during the sound check, but they don’t seem to spend time trying to develop their sense of timing and groove. I know that I am no Rocco, but I constantly work on my timing and groove because, according to other musicians that I play with and my own opinion, a bassist who can’t groove is useless. Additionally, this guy had an ample supply of bum notes (so much so that even the guitarist from my band noticed, so you know it must have been really bad). He even consoled me because he knew I was disappointed with my fellow bass player’s performance.
So, in addition to venting, I would like to hear the opinions of my Talkbass brethren (who I am confident are all excellent players and do not suffer from this phenomenon) regarding this disturbing trend of bassists who can play all of Wooten’s favorite lines, but can’t hold a solid groove or play the correct notes to a simple rock-type song.

[darkfinger]

I agree that a bass player that can`t hold down the groove is kinda useless... however a lot of variables come into play...how long was the dude playing? It could be that he`s currently in that stage of playing where he has just recently discovered that he can physically play more than just the roots. I remember when I went through this stage...It was so exciting being able to write an uber-complex bass line that I all but forgot that the main job of a bassist is to hold down the groove I thought I ruled but looking back on it now, I`m sure every seasoned bassist in the joint was rolling their eyes and shaking their heads at my noodling ways. During this stage of my playing one bassist came up to me and actually told me in front of everyone that I sucked. (it was harsh, but it opened my eyes in a hurry)
Or it could be that the dude has been playing forever, and no one has bothered to tell him that noodling is for guitards and the pocket is where we as bassists should be most comfortable....
Or it could be that he thinks he is the king-hell most amazing thing on four strings and he just ignores the groove `cause he thinks playing 5 notes when he could be playing 27 is beneath him...in this case to him.
It`s funny that as most of us progress in technical skills on the bass, the simpler and more succinct our lines become. Not that there is anything wrong with an insane bass line, but the best in the biz know that there`s a time and a place for them, plus, they can hold down the groove while doing it!

[KJung]

Where I come from, we call that 'practicing the wrong things'. I know a number of bassists who spend all their time learning VERY complicated tunes, but never to the point of being able to play them in time. I wish I had a dime for every wanker I've ever heard that plays 'Spain' or some tune '75% correctly'.

I think it comes from a total lack of awareness. For me, my rule is 'if you can't play it in time, you can't play it'. However, when I've recently given a few very informal lessons to a couple of these types of players, they kind of look at me like I'm crazy.

Don't get me wrong, I love to stretch out and push myself to play stuff 'over my head' (i.e., tunes and licks that I just don't have the talent, chops, skill, whatever, to pull off cleanly and in time)... but it never (or at least rarely, I hope!) leaves the living room.

The good news is, players like that leave at least some room for the rest of us to work in these difficult times of declining pay and gigs

[Tslicebass]

It is the music media phenom. Everyone wants to be a rockstar but nobody wants to work on the fundamentals. This guy is probably poorly self taught or had a teacher who never got him started with a strong foundation. That and he probably doesnt practice or play enough pocket gigs to have developed a groove. Thankfully, these guys usually end up working themselves out of bands and then they come here or to ebay or craigslist to sell off their basses.
More gigs for the real bassists...and good deals on used axes

[cowsgomoo]

sometimes, some of the sloppiest players can be the most interesting... Les Claypool, Keith Moon

if there's something interesting there, then I can forgive a reckless sloppiness if there's character & originality

and it's totally possible to be a metronomically perfect, machine-like bass player.... and be completely boring, with nothing whatsoever to say

ok, so the holy grail is fantastic timing & technical ability and something original to express, but I think fantastic timing is overrated... certainly in the minds of non-musician music consumers... I listen back now to stuff I loved before I became a musician and find some of it terribly sloppy, but I wouldn't have known or cared if I hadn't become a musician... my aim is to still find things to love despite sloppy technique.. and no way am I going to dismiss a person out of hand just because he can't emulate a metronome...

if I have to choose, i'll take sloppiness over tedium any day

[JimmyM]

But you don't have to choose. And besides, guys like Claypool are only sloppy up to a point. When playing a groove, I hear very little sloppiness come out of him.

It's just immaturity, pure and simple. There comes a point when people grow up and realize that they better get their timing down or they won't work. Or they don't and they fade off into obscurity.

[Qvist]

So standin' in the background playing 1/3 of the tunes the guitard does is playing bass, wow, I think I chose the wrong instrument several years ago...

Who says you can't groove AND solo in the same song? There's rhythm and lead guitarist out there, of course bassists can go lead sometimes. As long as it doesn't mess up the song, I can't see why not.

[JimmyM]

Qvist, play like you want, just make sure when it's time for you to stand in the background and not be noticed, that you keep the fort down. And when it's time to shine, shine like a supernova!

I think the problem people are having isn't with the flashy bass playing...it's the lack of timing in a lot of flashy bassists. If you can't keep good time, what's the point?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

sometimes, some of the sloppiest players can be the most interesting... Les Claypool, Keith Moon

if there's something interesting there, then I can forgive a reckless sloppiness if there's character & originality

and it's totally possible to be a metronomically perfect, machine-like bass player.... and be completely boring, with nothing whatsoever to say

ok, so the holy grail is fantastic timing & technical ability and something original to express, but I think fantastic timing is overrated... certainly in the minds of non-musician music consumers... I listen back now to stuff I loved before I became a musician and find some of it terribly sloppy, but I wouldn't have known or cared if I hadn't become a musician... my aim is to still find things to love despite sloppy technique.. and no way am I going to dismiss a person out of hand just because he can't emulate a metronome...

if I have to choose, i'll take sloppiness over tedium any day

IMO, you are confusing sloppy technique with bad time. Those are two VERY different things. While I like neither, I agree with you that sloppy technique can be somewhat forgiven when a lot of inspiration is present.

Bad time... IMO that's always bad... no excuse, no forgiveness, and every listener notices it. They might not be able to articulate what it is, but they notice. It either makes you want to tap your foot or it doesn't.

[j-bass-kreep]

Timing is everything, you can wank and still be in time. Sometimes I overplay sometimes I lay back but its always in time.

[BassMan250]

+1 to DarkFinger's statement about how the bassist might have been in the stage where he moves away from holding down the root and overplays instead, I got stuck in that rut for awhile. I think that stage is what separates the real musicians from the wannabes, learning humility and control is IMHO one of the most important concepts to learn.

[iplaybassguitar]

Originally Posted by Qvist

So standin' in the background playing 1/3 of the tunes the guitard does is playing bass, wow, I think I chose the wrong instrument several years ago...

Who says you can't groove AND solo in the same song? There's rhythm and lead guitarist out there, of course bassists can go lead sometimes. As long as it doesn't mess up the song, I can't see why not.

i dont think you really read the OP. nobody said that soloing or playing upfront on bass is unacceptable, or even slightly annoying. The OP was talking about bassists that cant hold a groove, play in time, lock with the drummer, that sort of thing. he also said its annoying when players miss notes, or play wrong ones. Again, nothing about soloing.

you can play lead bass all you want, but not if you think lead bassists wont have to play in time or play correct notes.

[malicous]

Some very important insights have been mentioned by everyone. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
What Darkfinger said about the guy's experience level and all that is definitely very pertinent. I think that the guy I saw last night was not a noob, because of his age and the gear that he had. But, he might just be a wealthy nood, so who knows.
Kjung, what you said ('if you can't play it in time, you can't play it') is definitely something that I try to live by. I too practice some of Bona’s craziest licks at home, but they are not heard outside my bedroom until I have them down clean and smooth.
I think that JimmyM is correct about not needing to choose between being interesting and playing clean and in time.
And yes, I do believe you can “wank” and still play in time and have a solid groove. And, acquiring the musical knowledge that would help a bassist play the correct notes in bass line will also help with intelligent and inspired soloing, IMO.

[Silas Martinez]

Originally Posted by Qvist

So standin' in the background playing 1/3 of the tunes the guitard does is playing bass, wow, I think I chose the wrong instrument several years ago...

Who says you can't groove AND solo in the same song? There's rhythm and lead guitarist out there, of course bassists can go lead sometimes. As long as it doesn't mess up the song, I can't see why not.

Sure, groove, solo, and have a blast.... But if you're not serving the tune first, expect at some point to have someone tell you you're overplaying.

Its possible to have a fairly solid groove and still overplay. I get frustrated sometimes when I hear that. I can't remember whose quote it is originally, and I'm sure I'm mangling it, but the essence of bass, to me, is something like this:

I'll play what the song calls for. If it calls for pyrotechnics, I'll provide them, and make them groove. But if it calls for one note, then that one note will make you cry.