Why doesn't everyone learn like this?

[photoshopgeek]

Hey guys,

Got a question...

Before I learned the bass I had eight years of traditional piano instruction, so I had a good foundation for learning bass theory and more music theory in general. My dad started me on the bass, but I have pretty much taught myself for around ten years.

When I started messing around I learned where a major scale was on the bass, and found that you can use the same positioning anywhere, whether it be E or C:


-6-78---
-34-5---
--1-2---
--------

So the way I learned was to play by position, not by note or tab. I can play in any key without having to change the way I think about the song. I'm sure there are other people that use this technique, but why doesn't everyone learn this way? It seems alot simpler than many learning systems I've seen.

[ysand]

I use this too, but i was lucky enough to have a teacher who taught me.

[ojsmoothy]

I don't quite understand the way you have that tabbed, could you explain a little more please?

[nortonrider]

I've always done it like that.

It's the easiest way I've seen.

[photoshopgeek]

Originally Posted by ojsmoothy

I don't quite understand the way you have that tabbed, could you explain a little more please?

I'm just using the dashes as frets and the numbers are where you play. They replace the dashes in those spots. On a four-string bass with standard tuning it's a C Major scale. It's not the best way to tab since the numbers offset the dashes.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by photoshopgeek

Hey guys,

Got a question...

Before I learned the bass I had eight years of traditional piano instruction, so I had a good foundation for learning bass theory and more music theory in general. My dad started me on the bass, but I have pretty much taught myself for around ten years.

When I started messing around I learned where a major scale was on the bass, and found that you can use the same positioning anywhere, whether it be E or C:


-6-78---
-34-5---
--1-2---
--------

So the way I learned was to play by position, not by note or tab. I can play in any key without having to change the way I think about the song. I'm sure there are other people that use this technique, but why doesn't everyone learn this way? It seems alot simpler than many learning systems I've seen.

Nashville Numbers.

Most Country and Blues players think that way.

And yeah, it's WAYYYY easier.

IMOHO

[Snarf]

It really, really helps your chops and solo ideas to be able to combine different tetrachords for different scale fingerings.

[Aged_Clayman]

So the way I learned was to play by position, not by note or tab. I can play in any key without having to change the way I think about the song

You mean, there`re people out there who think the other way? Gosh.
The only problem I`ve run using this method is that in the end you don`t know what notes you`re playing. I mean, I know that I play in G and that *this* note is the seventh, but what`s the notes name? Dunno, let me count from this dotted things.

[eedre]

Originally Posted by photoshopgeek

So the way I learned was to play by position, not by note or tab. I can play in any key without having to change the way I think about the song. I'm sure there are other people that use this technique, but why doesn't everyone learn this way? It seems alot simpler than many learning systems I've seen.

I think everyone learns to project their knowledge of the first instrument they learned theory on to other instruments they pick up. I always visualize the keyboard when I'm trying to name a note I play on the bass.

I also play the bass by position - it's a more instinctual way to play something instead of knowing the notes imo. All my fills and such go by the way I have memorized certain finger positions.. I think it's helpful to know it the traditional way too...

[photoshopgeek]

Originally Posted by eedre

I think everyone learns to project their knowledge of the first instrument they learned theory on to other instruments they pick up. I always visualize the keyboard when I'm trying to name a note I play on the bass.

I also play the bass by position - it's a more instinctual way to play something instead of knowing the notes imo. All my fills and such go by the way I have memorized certain finger positions.. I think it's helpful to know it the traditional way too...

It's not that I don't know the notes and theory behind what I play. Starting with the piano did teach me the importance of theory. It's just when I'm playing that I don't really want to have to think about what key I'm playing in or have to remember where the tabs went.

[Wootsticks]

I learned like that with only a minor background in music, from euphonium in band.

[jollygiantchris]

I play by position but I am making myself sit there and sing all the note names when I run through scale patterns now because it irritates me that I don't know the fretboard better.

In the end its really about what works best for you and your ability to create.

[PocketGroove82]

Training wheels are helpful, so I think many people learn bass this way, using a "data entry" style. A lot like this: "Touch 3 here...then up to 5...then 3 on the low string."
There is nothing wrong with this at all, although it can be hard for some to unlearn this and start thinking in music and Hearing, rather than just running digital patterns in a scale.
You can also play the major scale in numerous, different ways starting from the 1st finger, the pinky, or an open string, so I encourage you to learn those too.

[funkalicious101]

weird. I've always played be position, it just makes more sense.

[phektus]

I'm using this system also, but I expanded it a bit. Having your middle finger stuck on the root which is situated in the lowest string is limiting for me. This is what OP has, which is rather common -
by fingering:
-1-----3--4-
-1--2-----4-
----2-----4-
by position to scale:
-6-----7--8-
-3--4-----5-
----1-----2-

So for example, in key of E:
-C#-|---|-D#-|-E- (G string)
-G#-|-A-|----|-B- (D string)
-----|-E-|----|-F#- (A string)
this one has to be done in the 7th fret on tha A string, which is rather high. My alternative is to start with the E string, so that the pinky is on the root (E) and the rest of my fingers spread on two strings E and A:
-C#-|---|-D#-|-E- (A string)
-G#-|-A-|----|-B- (E string)

Now, the problem is with the 2 note, F#. What I do is to just either: 1) move my pinky a whole step higher the nect or 2) get the F# from the D string. The first one defies the fingering objective of economy of motion. So I go for my second option:
-F#-|---|-----|--- (D string)
-C#-|---|-D#-|-E- (A string)
-G#-|-A-|----|-B- (E string)
Of course you can extend it all the way:
-F#-|---|-G#-|--- (D string)
-C#-|---|-D#-|-E- (A string)
-G#-|-A-|----|-B- (E string)
up to:
-B--|---|-C#-|--- (G string)
-F#-|---|-G#-|--- (D string)
-C#-|---|-D#-|-E- (A string)
-G#-|-A-|----|-B- (E string)
which is all of the E major scale in that given position (fret 4 to 7).

The ultimate skill here would be to make full use of every four fret group in the neck, and derive your scale there. This involves knowledge of the notes, which I think is important. It is not enough to memorize the pattern - they just serve as your guide when starting on your scales. Eventually, you will have to know which scale a note belongs to. That way, You have your economy of motion as well as mastery of the fretboard by being able to utilize all possible notes available and use it on the current musical context.

PS - Search for Pacman's sure fire way of learning scales, which is stickied here somewhere. I think that also points to the same principle of utilizing a four-fret group for any given scale on any given key.

[not_jason]

I think that a lot of beginner instruction is more focused on teaching how to read music than it is on explaining the core reasoning behind that. In a lot of educational situations, I think, skills like sight reading are prioritized to allow students to effectively play in larger arrangements or something similar. Therefor, it's important for a musician to know that if something is in G major, it's got an F# in it. It's significantly less important for that student to know why it has an F#, or what makes G major all that different from C major, which uses a lot of the same chords and notes.

I've had a number of people, piano players and classically trained musicians, tell me that guitar is a bad instrument to learn theory on. I disagree. I think it lends itself to a more hands on understanding of theory than a lot of other instruments do. I'm really bad at just about every instrument other than guitar and bass, but one thing I've noticed about pretty much every instrument, even the logically ordered piano keyboard, is that they tend to abstract the patterns to an extent that it can be hard to notice them. you can play two scales back to back on piano, and you might notice the pattern audibly, but the fingering required might differ radically. on a fretboard, two different major scales played back to back will often require the exact same fingering. So it's easier for a beginner to start transposing things immediately than it would be on a different instrument.

I doesn't necessarily advocate learning by positions in the sense of blindly running the same scales from different starting points, but I do think that learning theory in terms of intervals is tremendously helpful. Of course people should know the names of the notes, but it's a LOT more helpful, for example, to know that a note is the 3rd of G major than it is to know that it's a B. And I believe this sort of thinking lends itself very helpfully to learning more advanced concepts.

[kesslari]

Human beings have different learning modalities and paradigms.
We're different. It's one of the salient features of humans.
There are certain things that work well for a lot of people. Other things that don't work well for those people, but which, perhaps remarkably, work really well for some *other* group of people.
Very cool that this works well for you. It does indeed work well for a lot of people.

There is no "best way to learn", any more than there is a "best bass" or "best amp".
Except on internet forums, where of course there are...

[nsmar4211]

My teacher started me like that. Positions. And modes..... half the time I don't know which note I'm playing but I can tell you it's the 4......5......flat 7....... Best way to play at blues jams cause the guitars can just call out the progression and viola! All set! Helps that I already knew scales from playing marimba before playing bass though

Playing in position helps when figuring out new stuff too. Once you figure out if it's major or minor, and find the root, the rest of the notes are there under your fingers . Well, many of them anyhow

[Bocete]

I totally agree with your view on music.. It's so very easy and natural playing piano started to bother me. Why would an instrument be based on a key? I can understand it on instruments like the trumpet, where many notes are simply harmonics of the key note, so you obviously need a key to start with.. But why should a piano be based on C major? or on any other key?

In fact, if keyboard had only black and white keys next to each other all the time, you could play in any key using only two possible positions instead of 12 different positions. So the white keys would be, for example, C-D-E-F#-G#-A#-C, while the black keys would be C#-D#-F-G-A-B-C#.. Six white & black keys per octave, so you'd even have a bigger octave range for the same keyboard width

Sorry for any unclear phrases, English is not my mother language.
Bocete

[photoshopgeek]

Originally Posted by Bocete

I totally agree with your view on music.. It's so very easy and natural playing piano started to bother me. Why would an instrument be based on a key? I can understand it on instruments like the trumpet, where many notes are simply harmonics of the key note, so you obviously need a key to start with.. But why should a piano be based on C major? or on any other key?

In fact, if keyboard had only black and white keys next to each other all the time, you could play in any key using only two possible positions instead of 12 different positions. So the white keys would be, for example, C-D-E-F#-G#-A#-C, while the black keys would be C#-D#-F-G-A-B-C#.. Six white & black keys per octave, so you'd even have a bigger octave range for the same keyboard width

Sorry for any unclear phrases, English is not my mother language.
Bocete

Wow... I've never even thought of using the same technique on the piano. That would really mess up alot of people, including me.

Looking at your proposal, initially I like it. It would make it alot easier to learn, I think. After thinking about it for a little bit though, I really think learning the theory would be more difficult. I mean, everyone know that C Major is the white keys. No sharps or flats. That would completely change. And the black keys are basically a pentonic scale. So the piano does inherently make sense theoretically just not practically.

BTW, I wonder why the original inventor of the piano made the black keys the pentonic scale. Kinda wierd... Wonder what made him decide to go with that plan rather than any of the other possibilities I'm sure he could have chosen...