Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Atoz

One thing I don't know, however, is the thickness of the picks she sells on her website. I wrote to her to ask, and she responded with a kind of "don't worry about the pick thickness, worry about the technique" answer, which didn't help. Does anyone around here know? I don't own any calipers, or I'd measure them myself.

They are like Fender heavy picks. I don't know where I put them, or I would measure one for you. But they are like heavy picks.

IMO you should snot use medium or thin picks for bass. They flex too much and you lose a lot of energy and speed in the flex.

I use the purple Dunlop tortex picks.

[Atoz]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

They are like Fender heavy picks. I don't know where I put the, or I would measure one for you. But they are like heavy picks.

IMO you should snot use medium or thin picks for bass. They flex too much and you lose a lot of energy and speed in the flex.

I use the purple Dunlop tortex picks.

Yeah, I definitely prefer the Carole Kaye picks, not just for the thickness, but also the narrow shape is just more comfortable for me. They are pretty much identical to the Guitar Man picks you posted, but white plastic.

[FaithNoMan]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

They are like Fender heavy picks. I don't know where I put them, or I would measure one for you. But they are like heavy picks.

IMO you should snot use medium or thin picks for bass. They flex too much and you lose a lot of energy and speed in the flex.

I use the purple Dunlop tortex picks.

I use 1mm Pickboy Modulous Carbon picks, which are slightly thinner and a LOT stiffer than the purple 1.14 Dunlops(which were one of my previous faves)

I get them pretty cheap off the 'bay - they don't wear out.

[Clef_de_fa]

what impress me the most of her is ... she doesn't choke the neck with her fretting thumb like 90% of bass player. Just for that she has my admiration.

[Hamlet7768]

Thank you so much for this, OP. I finally gave it a serious try after realizing she used it, and the change is impressive.

[Atoz]

Originally Posted by Hamlet7768

Thank you so much for this, OP. I finally gave it a serious try after realizing she used it, and the change is impressive.

+1.

[Ukiah Bass]

I had some of Carol's picks but they were too small and hard to grip. About the size of a Fender Heavy pick. I like the "Cool" pick (1mm) better because it is slightly oversized and has a rubber insert. These features help maintain a firm grip without slipping - especially in when the temperature is hot / humid.

[Day Tripper]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

5. (OOPS...forgot this one...extremely important!) Don't play just downstrokes. Always play down-up. Downstrokes take your wrist out of the side to side movement and cause pain. "But Jimmy," you protest, "Downstrokes sound heavier than upstrokes!" Hmmm, sounds like you need to practice more. If someone can tell the difference between you playing all downstrokes and you playing down-up, just practice it until you get it.

It should be pointed out that Carol Kaye does not advocate strict alternate picking. Instead she recommends aligning your downstrokes to strong beats.


For example lets consider a beat comprising an 8th note and two 16th notes.

Consider the following configurations..

Carol would play an 8th note occuring on the downbeat followed by two 16th notes - the classic 'gallop' rhythm with a pick sequence of DDU.

She would play two 16th notes followed by an 8th note as DUD. If that rhythmic unit were to be repeated through all four beats of the bar she would play DUD DUD DUD DUD.

when playing a 16th followed by an 8th note followed by a 16th note Carol uses DUU.


It takes some practice to get this approach to an intuitive level but it is well worth it.

[funkybass]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

They are like Fender heavy picks. I don't know where I put them, or I would measure one for you. But they are like heavy picks.

IMO you should snot use medium or thin picks for bass. They flex too much and you lose a lot of energy and speed in the flex.

I use the purple Dunlop tortex picks.

The CK picks are thicker than a fender heavy. I think the CK picks are the perfect thickness. I wish someone on here could measure one.

[5StringFool]

They're about 1.5mm and made of plastic. I prefer a 2.0mm pick myself, every now and again I'll use a 3.0mm acrylic.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by funkybass

The CK picks are thicker than a fender heavy. I think the CK picks are the perfect thickness. I wish someone on here could measure one.

Yes, I have a bunch of them. I used to use the CK picks back in the early 70s. Some have the brand name "Coast" on them. I have more with a different name. And I have a bunch Carol sent me with her name on them. I like them quite a bit, but I now prefer larger picks.

[GreggBummer]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

I guess because when I play finger style I'm used to mostly using just my index finger. I like the way it sounds. So I find lately when I use a pick I do all downstrokes, unless I'm playing something tricky.

I never get any pain using a pick, but I do when playing with my fingers.

This is another good reason to learn to use a pick. It varies your hand movement. Repetitive motion exacerbates pain and can cause injury to your hand: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/r...ive_motion.htm

My doctor, who is a guitar and piano player himself, recommended that I play bass with my fingers for 30 minutes then switch to the pick. I'll be honest, I don't follow that exactly, but I do switch back and forth through out the night. I am pain free now that I switch it up from time to time.

Also, using Carol Kayes method, my picking has become much better. I'm still more comfortable with my fingers, but I feel much more confident picking now.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by GreggBummer

This is another good reason to learn to use a pick. It varies your hand movement. Repetitive motion exacerbates pain and can cause injury to your hand: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/r...ive_motion.htm

My issue with playing with my fingers is unless I can hear myself as loud as I like, I pluck the strings too hard. I tend to pluck fairly hard anyway, but if I over do it I hurt my fingers.

[GreggBummer]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

My issue with playing with my fingers is unless I can hear myself as loud as I like, I pluck the strings too hard. I tend to pluck fairly hard anyway, but if I over do it I hurt my fingers.

I was in the same boat. However, my mentor kept hammering home the idea that I should be "playing" the bass and NOT "amplifying" the bass. That is what the $500 amp behind me is for. Outside of the usual good dynamic control, I have tried to have a sort of "gentle" approach to right hand technique. I have turned up the gain on the amp a little to compensate for the softer touch.

There is a whole discussion here about matching an amps gain stage to your right hand technique... but that is a different thread.

Also, I could be wrong.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by GreggBummer

I have turned up the gain on the amp a little to compensate for the softer touch.

Ah, but it sounds different when you pluck harder. That's why I do it, not to be louder. You get a lot more attack on the note. I've lightened up a lot lately though.

[johnson79]

I had CTS surgery about a year ago. Now I find that I play more with my fingers about 75% of the time. I used to play 100% with a pick for years. I can't seem to get as good of a grip for a long period of time with the pick now.

Not sure what I can do to help that. Any suggestions?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by johnson79

I had CTS surgery about a year ago. Now I find that I play more with my fingers about 75% of the time. I used to play 100% with a pick for years. I can't seem to get as good of a grip for a long period of time with the pick now.

Not sure what I can do to help that. Any suggestions?

That's a tough one once the damage has been done. I know John Wetton wears a thumbpick taped to his thumb these days because of his CTS.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Hamlet7768

Thank you so much for this, OP. I finally gave it a serious try after realizing she used it, and the change is impressive.

Awesome! Glad it worked for you!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Day Tripper

It should be pointed out that Carol Kaye does not advocate strict alternate picking. Instead she recommends aligning your downstrokes to strong beats.


For example lets consider a beat comprising an 8th note and two 16th notes.

Consider the following configurations..

Carol would play an 8th note occuring on the downbeat followed by two 16th notes - the classic 'gallop' rhythm with a pick sequence of DDU.

She would play two 16th notes followed by an 8th note as DUD. If that rhythmic unit were to be repeated through all four beats of the bar she would play DUD DUD DUD DUD.

when playing a 16th followed by an 8th note followed by a 16th note Carol uses DUU.


It takes some practice to get this approach to an intuitive level but it is well worth it.

Ya, you're right. I've seen her do just that.

[MarkA]

I didn't have surgery, but I had pretty horrible tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome years back. Took me well over a year to get back to full strength -- exercise, stretching, attention to technique; basically aggressive (but careful) rehab on all fronts. I'm pretty good now -- my hands are fast and strong, and I can play for a good while -- but if I jump into playing cold (especially on a cold day) or am sloppy about my technique, I can have a flare-up.

I'm not you and don't know the details of your case, just saying that the fact that a year's gone by, in and of itself, doesn't mean that you won't see some improvement yet, especially if you're proactive about it.

For the record, I'm not a pick player, but this thread has me curious to try it again (last time I used a pick was in high school on an Alice in Chains cover!).

Good luck!

Originally Posted by johnson79

I had CTS surgery about a year ago. Now I find that I play more with my fingers about 75% of the time. I used to play 100% with a pick for years. I can't seem to get as good of a grip for a long period of time with the pick now.

Not sure what I can do to help that. Any suggestions?