Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[mattblissett]

I have started using the CK method to pick with, and it's ironed out a lot of my reservations over using the pick in terms of its consistency and such, now I'm happy to use a pick if the song requires it

[BillyRay]

I play exactly like that with a pick except I have the bad habit of resting my hand on the pu cover. I guess this will be coming off soon.

[62bass]

I'm glad to see that so many are picking up (no pun intended) on the best and safest way to use a pick on electric bass. I've managed to undo years of playing the wrong way by using the methods in Carol's Bass DVD course. The left hand fingering is important too. The one finger per fret guitar player's method is fine for guitar but dangerous on bass when playing the repetitive patterns commonly played on bass, particularly in the lower registers.

Re the P Lyte bass she used to play. Jimmy said he thought it was stock. She actually had her tech instal Seymour Duncan pickups and tidy up the wiring in the preamp which the tech described as "a rat's nest". She sold both of the two P Lytes she had after they developed neck problems that she didn't want to bother with any more. They could have been fixed but was tired of the hassle. The people who bought both basses knew in advance about the necks. I don't know if that's a common problem with that model or not.

I have a couple dozen of Carol's picks and like them a lot. Very stiff and the exact shape is not one you can find from anyone else these days. I've turned on a couple good guitar players to her picks and they loved them once they got used to them. Once you get the hang of using them and her picking technique you can play very fast with precision and no fatigue.

Anyhow, thanks Jimmy for bringing this up.

[JayAmel]

Originally Posted by the_fonz

Holy crap
I've been using the Carol Kaye method all these years and never knew it.

+1.

[KPAX]

One problem - John Wetton wasn't a pick player. He is now BECAUSE of the CTS (not by choice). He's been dealing with his hand problem for years. Back in Crimson, Roxy, UH, UK, etc. he was the antithesis of a pick player - ALL FINGERS. Aggressive, hard hitting, distorted - the anti Greg Lake. Larks Tongues, Starless & Bible Black, Red, UK - all fingers. Go look up old live Crimson (Wetton/Bruford period) on YouTube. Wetton didn't make his name using a pick. Your conclusion is based on a false premise.
The Carol Kaye method? Who does that besides Bill Wyman? Why not wear you bass under your chin and pick with a feather? There is no right or wrong way to play - it's up to the individual and the music. Wetton's CTS is bad luck and age. He's a kick-ass bass player - I hope his hand gets better.
For using a pick, I prefer the Rex Brown technique.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

John Wetton, a highly skilled bassist who could play pretty much anything you threw at him, and whose playing and singing with King Crimson, Roxy Music, Uriah Heep and UK established him as a world-class bassist with tech skills to spare (don't judge him by Asia), has carpal tunnel syndrome in his right hand. He's had one surgery that apparently hasn't taken, and now plays with a thumbpick taped to his thumb. When he played with a pick before, he pretty much played like a guitar player (since he plays guitar, too, not surprising). I'd see him do things like anchoring his pinky, palm muting, all downstrokes, etc. The guy can still play, make no mistake, but he's greatly diminished by CTS and has to play in pain.

People dismiss me sometimes when I talk about Carol Kaye's pick method preventing these injuries, but there's no doubt in my mind that Wetton's CTS was brought on by playing bass with a pick like guitarists. Guitar strings are thin and wussy. Bass strings are thick and manly. You can't play pick bass like a guitar. Sure, a lot of you have been getting away with it. Wetton got away with it for 40 years. I managed to go for 25. I was on the verge of developing it. Within 10-15 seconds, my hand would ache like crazy while I used a pick, so naturally I dropped it and played fingers only for a few years, but I missed the attack of a pick in some songs and wanted to do it again, so I learned Carol Kaye's pick method. Took a little while to get used to it, and it definitely doesn't look as cool as playing pick bass like a guitar, but I have been totally pain-free playing pick bass for the last 3 years. Carol may not be a day at the beach, but she certainly can play, and she would play 16 hours a day in the 60's and remains totally pain free to this day.

Here's how to do it. You can also see videos of Carol playing on www.carolkaye.com and probably Youtube if you need a visual. And scattered out in Carol's Player's Points and Forum is a lot of info on it, with a much better explanation of it all than I could do.

1. Never use a light or medium pick. Use at least a heavy. With a heavy, the pick does the work and takes the beating. With lighter picks, you do the work.

2. Never anchor your hand because it causes you to take your hand out of the position it needs to be in to be pain free. Want to palm mute? Stick a sponge under the strings instead. Palm muting is especially injurous, even though a lot of people do it.

3. Pick close to the neck where the strings are looser. I use light strings (.040 G) so I can pick from between the neck up to the first pickup without pain. For .045 G and higher, you're better off staying close to the neck. Yes, I know it sounds boomy up there. But it really doesn't sound as boomy as you think in a mix. If it really irritates you, roll off some bass instead.

4. Hold your hand to where your pinky is slightly raised off the strings, and keep your wrist parallel with the strings. Move your hand from the wrist in a side to side motion, and NEVER MOVE YOUR THUMB!!! Moving your thumb is a killer.

5. (OOPS...forgot this one...extremely important!) Don't play just downstrokes. Always play down-up. Downstrokes take your wrist out of the side to side movement and cause pain. "But Jimmy," you protest, "Downstrokes sound heavier than upstrokes!" Hmmm, sounds like you need to practice more. If someone can tell the difference between you playing all downstrokes and you playing down-up, just practice it until you get it.

Takes a little getting used to, but it's so much better than ending the night with your hand in an ice bucket or having surgery once a year. You may be getting away with the stuff you're doing for a while, but it'll catch up with you eventually. Trust me.

[E2daGGurl]

Interesting clarification about Wetton, KPAX.

I find it very limiting to stick to using a pick, but also fun to know how to use one properly on certain songs. A lot of what I like and enjoy about playing bass and the tone I can get comes from how my fingers touch the strings - there are infinite ways that a sensitive fingertip can interact with those strings.

[jgbass]

Originally Posted by 62bass

I'm glad to see that so many are picking up (no pun intended) on the best and safest way to use a pick on electric bass. I've managed to undo years of playing the wrong way by using the methods in Carol's Bass DVD course. The left hand fingering is important too. The one finger per fret guitar player's method is fine for guitar but dangerous on bass when playing the repetitive patterns commonly played on bass, particularly in the lower registers.

I would also like to add that Carol's left hand techniques work very well for me. I started electric bass in my '40's and continue playing. I never have had any pain or injuries from playing, and a lot of this fine technique has, in some way, carried over to approaching the DB correctly. I know that's a different instrument in many ways, but things like pivoting and thumb placement ideas can be used on DB.

I absolutely cringe when I see these discussions on one finger per fret, and, without derailing this thread, just wanted to suggest that if you like her pick technique, take a look at the left hand technique as well. There is plenty of free and accessible info in the Playing Tips section on her website as well as on her Bass DVD. As I see it, a major point of Carol's method is be able to play and play hour after hour and year after year without pain or injury.

[KPAX]

Awesome correct technique. Why? Because they sounded good. Good players do what works for them and makes good music.
Carol Kaye found what worked for a little lady playing in the genre she played but the electric bass has been taken in many other cool directions since she played on her 60's/70's pop hits.

[biff malibu]

i cant play standing up with the high carol kaye technique. id rather have cts someday than look like that on stage with my bass up above my damn waist.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by KPAX

One problem - John Wetton wasn't a pick player. He is now BECAUSE of the CTS (not by choice). He's been dealing with his hand problem for years. Back in Crimson, Roxy, UH, UK, etc. he was the antithesis of a pick player - ALL FINGERS. Aggressive, hard hitting, distorted - the anti Greg Lake. Larks Tongues, Starless & Bible Black, Red, UK - all fingers. Go look up old live Crimson (Wetton/Bruford period) on YouTube. Wetton didn't make his name using a pick. Your conclusion is based on a false premise.
The Carol Kaye method? Who does that besides Bill Wyman? Why not wear you bass under your chin and pick with a feather? There is no right or wrong way to play - it's up to the individual and the music. Wetton's CTS is bad luck and age. He's a kick-ass bass player - I hope his hand gets better.
For using a pick, I prefer the Rex Brown technique.

Um, sorry, but I think this video proves otherwise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlTvWvfEMxE

As does this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Gho...eature=related

And notice how he plays the bass...holding the pick like a guitarist, picking at the bridge. Maybe you should do a little research before you try to hammer me for using a false premise falsely.

As for whether you want to use Carol's style or not, I really don't care. This thread is for people who want to remain free of injury and still use a pick. If that's not you, there's nothing I can do about it except wish you luck when you're 50.

EDIT: You know, the more I think about your reply, the angrier I get. Not only did you not do any research on Asia to see if what I was saying was true (it is), you then saw fit to try to school me on technique when all I was doing was trying to prevent people from injuring themselves needlessly. So it was YOU who came to this thread with a false premise, not me. Not only that, you're trying to present Rex Brown with a bass down to his knees as a technique role model rather than a guy trying to look cool in a cool band. If you want to play like that, suit yourself, but don't come crying to me when CTS comes calling.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by biff malibu

i cant play standing up with the high carol kaye technique. id rather have cts someday than look like that on stage with my bass up above my damn waist.

Yeah, I did too when I was 24. I know a couple people my age or slightly older who will never regain the ability to play guitar or bass because of CTS and the surgeries needed. So look cool, but don't be a moron. CTS is nothing to joke with. I still sling my bass low but I do Carol's technique. I may be old but I look cool.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by biff malibu

i cant play standing up with the high carol kaye technique. id rather have cts someday than look like that on stage with my bass up above my damn waist.

Careful, you may get your wish.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by jgbass

I would also like to add that Carol's left hand techniques work very well for me. I started electric bass in my '40's and continue playing. I never have had any pain or injuries from playing, and a lot of this fine technique has, in some way, carried over to approaching the DB correctly. I know that's a different instrument in many ways, but things like pivoting and thumb placement ideas can be used on DB.

I absolutely cringe when I see these discussions on one finger per fret, and, without derailing this thread, just wanted to suggest that if you like her pick technique, take a look at the left hand technique as well. There is plenty of free and accessible info in the Playing Tips section on her website as well as on her Bass DVD. As I see it, a major point of Carol's method is be able to play and play hour after hour and year after year without pain or injury.

I think Carol makes some very good points about not using one finger per fret, such as when playing octaves. But I have tiny hands, the smallest of any male I've ever met, and I've never experienced pain when doing one finger per fret in first position. However, unless I'm playing something that absolutely requires one finger per fret, I usually do DB fingering, so maybe I'm just arguing with myself at this point

[Ric5]

I saw Wetton about 1974 with King Crimson. He played 90% to 100% fingers. Most of his work with King Crimson was finger playing. He got a great aggressive sound with his fingers.

I do not believe his wrist problems came from pick playing ... especially since he was primarly a finger player in his youth.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Ric5

I saw Wetton about 1974 with King Crimson. He played 90% to 100% fingers. Most of his work with King Crimson was finger playing. He got a great aggressive sound with his fingers.

I do not believe his wrist problems came from pick playing ... especially since he was primarly a finger player in his youth.

Play like that for 20 years and say that.

[Ric5]

I have been playing the guitar style picking method on bass for 40 years and absolutely no wrist problems from that at all. I also play several variations of fingerstyle methods.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Ric5

I have been playing the guitar style picking method on bass for 40 years and absolutely no wrist problems from that at all. I also play several variations of fingerstyle methods.

Well, you're lucky. I got pains, Wetton got pains, several people in this thread had pains. So you must have very good bone structure.

[bassrique]

Originally Posted by biff malibu

i cant play standing up with the high carol kaye technique. id rather have cts someday than look like that on stage with my bass up above my damn waist.

I feel the need to join the pile-on.

***?

The best electric bassists in the world strap it up in a manner that you may think of as "high" and/or "dorky", but this is the logical and practical norm for those that serve the music.

When I see a person with the bass down by the knees, I usually think, "fool". I know it's a bit snobbish, but it's just idiotic to me. Sorry.

[Nyarlathotep]

I don't know about anyone else here, but after reading this thread and experimenting around a little I found that I didn't like the sound picking carol kaye style.

I tried the Jauqo style (pick between index/middle, allows you to slap or even pop a little) and couldn't get comfortable. I figured it would work better for alternate picking, but I just can't get it down, prolly cus I like my bass low.

As a "last resort" I've practiced a little more fingerstyle, and I've found 3 things:

1) if I set up my basses with a slightly highish (1/4" on the 15th-17th frets) action I can raise my bridge pup a little more than my neck one and get a sound that's clear, but still has some thump from the neck pup.

2) I can sling my bass low and play more comfortably. I think this has something to do with being able to keep my arm and wrist straight when plucking the G string, rather than just my arm and having to pick "from my wrist".

3) I like lighter basses that have only 4 strings. My SX is ok for fingerstyle, but shines more with a pick cus of the strings being spaces closer. The nut is the same width as my 4 banger, but has 5 strings on it. Bridge is about the same, just with an extra string. As for weight, I can play for hours with my 4 banger, but my SX Jazz starts to hurt my shoulder after a while.

[bassrique]

I thin,k I've read over this whole thread form time to timt w/out missing much. I've still remained confused as to whether or not I'm making a mess of things vis-a-vis the CK picking technique. I know when I palm mute that's a bit off, but other than that, lost is me.

So i've been sniffing around Kaye's site and a found this on her first tip page: I hope on not reposting here.

Todd, if you're going to play with a pick, make sure it's a hard pick, and that all motion is in the WRIST (not from the arm or thumb). The bottom of your thumb muscle should graze on the string just below the one you're playing (and off the E as if there's another string below) with the pinkie side of your hand UP (not down, like a lot of guitar players play, this is a weak way to pick on the bass, the thumb side should be down and the pinkie side of the right hand UP), and pick from your wrist. At first, just let the pick "fall" on the down beats, quarter notes (play soft at first) and then add the upbeats notes, up-strokes so you're playing 8th notes: down-up-down-up-down-up-down-up while patting your left foot down and up too, both things going together in the same motion. Now, vary the pattern: down-up up-down-up up-down-up up-down-up with the 8th rest between. Your right arm above the wrist will be just a little bit sore for 2 days once you start using your upstrokes but this quickly goes away never to appear again (your muscle there is quickly strengthened). You use gravity mostly for the down-beats and the only work you have is the up-beats. Soon you learn to use the great natural strength you have in your right wrist to play hard with the pick and your sound and feel is phenomenal this way. I don't ordinarily encourage people that they "have to to use the pick", but if you're going to play with the pick, this technique proves out the be the absolute best! You can play hard all day and night and never get tired, get the finest sounds, and be accurate as well as have the best rhythmic feel too. Remember practically ALL the movement comes from a FLAT WRIST, a little from the arm when you're hopping over the strings to play octaves (sometimes your hand may move in a circle 8, this is fine), but not too much. One of my students tied his arm down so as to make the wrist move, you don't have to go this far, but just be aware, and make sure you can feel the bottom of your thumb muscle graze a string (not "lay" on a string, but almost). Triplets are played: down-up-up until you reach a tremolo fast tempo, then just do it down-up-down up-down-up (which is rare). If you play with the right pickstrokes, your feel will be amazingly great, with good metric time between the notes. Using the tear-drop shaped pick is a good idea, but make sure it's HARD and flatwound strings are best when using the pick (non-scratching sounding), it'll sound like a real good bass with the right settings and not even sound like you're playing with a pick.

Carol Kaye

Submitted at: 12:06 on Monday, April 27, 1998

I think I get it now, and i think I'm "right" about 2/3 of the time at least. This may be good enough for me, I don't know.

What i do know is that I'm loving my new Zero Gravity Orbit Guitar Picks. [I have no relationship with these people.]

I've always had a hard time holding on to a regular pick, The things seem to move around on me, and I feel like that's happening even when it's not it seems. So I often try and overcompensate by gripping the f'n thing like a vice, which is really bad for everything. With the orbit pick, the thing stays put put minimal effort. I'm so relaxed now. Instead of only playing with a pick around 5% [if that], these days i may bump that up to 20% or more. I'm really digg'n this thing. [My only beefs are that they're expensive and I think they'll wear down a little faster than a regular picl.]