Why for you thumb position.. not where

[Fergie Fulton]

What i am going to suggest may seen un-conventional but its based in fact. There will be many that will have some, if not all of these positions in their playing. There will be many more that don't.
These are the bare facts, the research backs it up in more ways than not.
Many will cite famous players and that their technique is trouble free, that is of no importance. What is important that you read, understand and make your own decisions on what your thumbs do. Incorrect use of the thumbs and the positions they occupy if under stress will lead to problems in later life.
There are many reasons for hand problems that are not related to bass playing in any way, but if you have one (how would you know) bad positions will compound the condition. What you are doing now by typing is one such example.

So when playing your bass your thumbs should be in a neutral position.

To show you that position, turn your palms round and look at them.
Keeping your fingers together point your thumbs out to the side.
This is a neutral position.
If you look to the base of your palm you will see it is flat in respects that it has no ridges or valleys in its shape.
Now bring your thumbs in and put it in front of your forefingers.
Notice the valley starting to form at the base of the thumb pad in the centre at the base of the palm.
As you move to you little finger notice how this valley deepens, this is where hand trouble starts in respect of compressing the median nerve. The Median nerve runs through a narrow pathway of bone and ligament in the palm of your hand.

Repeated use of the thumb with this valley present will in the long run give you hand and finger problems.
Long run is defined as between now and the day you die, as in repeatedly smoking cigarettes will give you lung disease in the long run.

When adopting a technique to use when playing have your thumbs of both hands point to the head stock.
Try and keep you wrists as straight as you can.
All techniques allow this from floating thumb to fixed thumb, from slap to classical, all allow for this if you examine you own technique and try it. It may be unfamiliar but a few hours to a few days will see it become better, making it natural you will have to work at.
As for the fretting hand ask yourself how often can i straighten my wrist? How often can i use my fingers? How often can i move my hand rather than stretching from a fixed position? And most important of all how often do i really need the top of my thumb directly behind the neck in front of my forefinger? The thumb is should be able to move from the neutral position for support when needed, not stay fixed in one position.
Let your thumb come over the top of the neck if need be, by doing so you let the pad at the bottom of the thumb and palm of the hand take the strain it is designed to handleand let the fingers do the work with a straight wrist.
Look at you hand with the thumb directly behind the neck in front of the forefinger, now point it towards the neck. You will notice the carpal tunnel area flattens allowing the whole of the base of the palm to take the strain.

Ask yourself this if i asked you to crush a tin can, would it be more effective to do it with the base of the palms or the tip of your thumbs, well any part of the thumbs really?


As i said this is the information, take it to you doctor, surgeon, osteopath, physio, specialist and ask them the benifits.
By the way i smoke so i know it will kill me... i have the facts and i know the risk..thats my decision.

To find out more, rather than me give you links, search out on searches of your own and try
Carpal tunnel injuries,
RSI injuries,
Hand Injuries,
How the hands work,
De Quervains Tensynovitis
Computer game hand injuries
Bass playing related injuries,
Injuries common to musicians,
are just a few to give you an idea. Search out your own job or trade and any hand related injuries, and remember you found them yourselves i did not point you to prefered sites.
Any questions, if relevent, i will be happy to answer if i can. Check the link out for more info.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ndId=233492636

[fender_funk_man]

I agree with a lot of the material you've got here. I find it really interesting that technique for bass players never really gets taught. Its such a young instrument that nobody has really done extensive work on technique. I'm blessed in having a teacher that really stresses good technique.


In regards to thumb placement however. If I'm reading this right you have the thumb on both hands pointed up the instrument towards the headstock. If I'm reading this right your hands should be shaped like L's.

If thats the case i'm going to have to disagree. The way I was taught is centered around the notion of eliminating tension. So look around your desk and grab the nearest beer bottle/cup/coffee mug. Let go and take a look at the shape of your hand, both the thumb and fingers should be pointed in the same direction. My teacher calls this the "cup".

When you put your bass on your left hand should wrap around the neck and maintain that cup shape. It is paramount that you have the bass set at a height that both your wrists are strait. With this method your hands should have very little stress, and thus prevent injuries.

Tension = bad news

[Mikio]

Originally Posted by fender_funk_man

I agree with a lot of the material you've got here. I find it really interesting that technique for bass players never really gets taught. Its such a young instrument that nobody has really done extensive work on technique.

this is true, even today a LOT, if not most, bassist play with a Contrabass technic, or some with a guitar-like technic

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by fender_funk_man

.


In regards to thumb placement however. If I'm reading this right you have the thumb on both hands pointed up the instrument towards the headstock. If I'm reading this right your hands should be shaped like L's.

If thats the case i'm going to have to disagree. The way I was taught is centered around the notion of eliminating tension. So look around your desk and grab the nearest beer bottle/cup/coffee mug. Let go and take a look at the shape of your hand, both the thumb and fingers should be pointed in the same direction. My teacher calls this the "cup".

Tension = bad news

That is what i am saying. Yes what your teacher has said is correct...in the right context but in bass playing it is flawed.
Unless you spend hours a day practicing grabing beer bottles and cups continuely and then spend up to two hours a night on stage doing it the comparison has no merit. Yes in the action you describe, the hand is doing what it was designed to do. But as you say bass gutar is a young instrument, your hands were never designed to do that action continuly, with such repitision for so long.
In a tug of war which hand stlye would you use to take the strain of the rope the other team are pulling, the one you describe or the one i propose?

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Mikio

this is true, even today a LOT, if not most, bassist play with a Contrabass technic, or some with a guitar-like technic

There is lots of great information about the hands and the way they can be used in all walks of life to there best ability.
My research has been on going for over fifteen years with the idea to write a book. But i find that in laying out the book what i have to say can be done in an article, or as part of a book on bass instruction. So i took the decision to post it here to see if its merits stand scrutiny.

[NickyBass]

I don't agree. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I have a different approach. The fingers, and the thumb have a natural curve to them. When you straighten then out, you are applying tension. The way I approach it is: lift the left hand into playing position, and keep it in it's natural state. ie, no tension. Now simply place the neck of the bass into the hand, and that is where the fingers should be. Same with the right hand. If you squeeze the neck with too much pressure, you are going to have problems...but if you relax and let the bass work with you, then there is no added tension in the fingers.

[cowsgomoo]

I have no problem with having my thumb over the top of the neck at times... you can't bend strings by pushing them towards you without your thumb somewhere up there to squeeze towards... if you try to bend a string with your thumb in the center of the back of the neck, you'll find it harder

however, I think it's important that you don't reduce the mobility of your fingers by wrapping your thumb too tightly around the back of the neck... lightly at the top edge of the neck is fine for me

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by NickyBass

I don't agree. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I have a different approach. The fingers, and the thumb have a natural curve to them. When you straighten then out, you are applying tension. The way I approach it is: lift the left hand into playing position, and keep it in it's natural state. ie, no tension. Now simply place the neck of the bass into the hand, and that is where the fingers should be. Same with the right hand. If you squeeze the neck with too much pressure, you are going to have problems...but if you relax and let the bass work with you, then there is no added tension in the fingers.

I agree with you, but i have looked at what i posted and i never mention any of the points you have mentioned about putting your hands under any tension or any undue presure. It reinforces the use of a natural position which is similar to what you describe.

[fender_funk_man]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Unless you spend hours a day practicing grabing beer bottles and cups continuely and then spend up to two hours a night on stage doing it the comparison has no merit. In a tug of war which hand stlye would you use to take the strain of the rope the other team are pulling, the one you describe or the one i propose?

Not really it took a couple of weeks to make this muscle memory. The point is I'm not actually squeezing the fret board. I position my bass in such a way that my hands basically just hang of the neck. I use the weight of my arms to sound the notes. The "cup" works well for this because there is no tension, therefore no strength is needed. It all just kinda flows.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by NickyBass

I don't agree. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I have a different approach. The fingers, and the thumb have a natural curve to them. When you straighten then out, you are applying tension.

Exactly what I was thinking while reading the OP.

[NickyBass]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

..i have looked at what i posted and i never mention any of the points you have mentioned about putting your hands under any tension or any undue presure.

You had mentioned that the thumb should point toward the headstock. This would force you to straighten out your thumb, which would interupt the natural position and put stress and tension on the wrist and the rest of the hand. My point is that the thumb and fingers aren't supposed to be flat--they should curve. In essence, your thumb should be pointing upward. Not totally up, it should curl into the neck, but it shouldn't be pointing toward the headstock.

Again, I'm not arguing which is 'correct.' I'm just saying what feels more natural to me. When my hands are hanging at my sides---that's the same shape that I want when holding the bass.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Let your thumb come over the top of the neck if need be, by doing so you let the pad at the bottom of the thumb and palm of the hand take the strain it is designed to handle and let the fingers do the work with a straight wrist.

The only mention of the word straight is the position of the wrist, not the hand or fingers.

I can find no evidence to support muscle memory it seems to be a buzz word created in golfing circles.

The act of opening and closing your fingers at the speed you would play lines at, with nothing there but fresh air, as you see in martial art training, for the length of time spend practicing or playing bass is enough to cause damage over time.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by NickyBass

You had mentioned that the thumb should point toward the headstock. This would force you to straighten out your thumb, which would interupt the natural position and put stress and tension on the wrist and the rest of the hand. My point is that the thumb and fingers aren't supposed to be flat--they should curve. In essence, your thumb should be pointing upward. Not totally up, it should curl into the neck, but it shouldn't be pointing toward the headstock.

Again, I'm not arguing which is 'correct.' I'm just saying what feels more natural to me. When my hands are hanging at my sides---that's the same shape that I want when holding the bass.

The natural position of the thumb when relaxed is pointing past the outside of the forefingers.
Everyone has a different motion to their thumb, the accepted position is the one described. Do not confuse that position with what any individual can do with theirs.
Can i ask how did you relax your hand to determine that the position you called relaxed? Through massage and gentle streching this is achievable in about 30-60 minutes depending on the condition of the hand.
Please don't get me wrong but i feel you may be personalising what you are writing rather than being objective.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Please don't get me wrong but i feel you may be personalising what you are writing rather than being objective.

Of course he is. a couple of his posts clearly state:

"...but I have a different approach"
and
"...I'm just saying what feels more natural to me"


Fergie: you have even posted "everyone has a different motion to their thumb"

which would suggest to me that there is NOT a one size fits all method.

[Fergie Fulton]

Sorry all there was a line on the "thumb being movable" that was missing. I have know edited it in. I can now see your point but my previous reply still stands.
For example my own hands when relaxed by my sides has in my right hand my knuckles facing forward and my palms pointing back. That is personal not typical.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Of course he is. a couple of his posts clearly state:

"...but I have a different approach"
and
"...I'm just saying what feels more natural to me"


Fergie: you have even posted "everyone has a different motion to their thumb"

which would suggest to me that there is NOT a one size fits all method.

And there in lies the problem. It is something to consider this is not a right way and a wrong way thing, its just something to consider in looking at any technique.

[NickyBass]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Of course he is. .

Right.

I have no reason to argue the 'proper' technique. I know what works for me, and I find that I am extremely relaxed when I play. That is my goal.

Fergie, you posted this:
"So i took the decision to post it here to see if its merits stand scrutiny. "

So I figured that I would go deeper with my reasoning instead of making statements with nothing to support them. Basically, I take my upright training and just move my hands to accomodate the electric. I even play with 3 finger technique. This works for me. May not work for everyone, but I love it.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

And there in lies the problem.

I didn't know that there was a problem.



...but, I think that it's cool that you have put what I would assume is quite a bit of thought into this "issue".

[Mr. Mig]

My teacher is also very tough when it comes to hand positioning.

[NickyBass]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

...its just something to consider in looking at any technique...

I went through a long period when I scrutinized every tiny movement that I made, and asked myself why I did that. That was when I was in college and had the time to really focus on my technique. It appears that you put in the time and research too.