Are you perfect or human?

Joe Nerve · #1 09-20-2009, 12:40 PM

Wasn't sure what section to put this in, but anyhow...

I'd like to see what people's thoughts are on recording and syncing the bass perfectly with the drums. I'm doing some funk recordings and arguing a bit regarding the 'perfecting' of my basslines and syncing them perfectly w the drums. If it's programmed beats I can understand doing that, but I really think it takes away from the groove when it's done with a live drummer. If something is off here and there, sure, but they're being (IMO) really crazy about the bass being dead on with all the kicks and snares. I also know that your ears have to ultimately be the judge, but it gets a bit complicated when you have 8 different ears hearing 4 different things. I also actually think when it comes to the groove it's more in your solar plexus (that you can feel differences) than your ears. And that's a tough one to argue when people are focusing on the music from a different perspective.

Are your bassparts tweaked to perfection? What's you take on the new school vs the old school way, and yeah... like that.

Thanks.

I guess I'll add that the recordings on my myspace page are all old school, and the basslines weren't perfected. Jest in case you're wondering if there's the possibility that my playing really needs all those edits they're doing. Maybe there is.

Lesfunk · #2 09-20-2009, 12:49 PM

human is better

reedo35 · #3 09-20-2009, 12:56 PM

Sometimes "Perfect" sounds mechanical and devoid of soul.

Billnc · #4 09-20-2009, 01:01 PM

I was in the studio, the producer went in to edit some tracks we recorded, visually we were all over the place. Goofing around he time aligned everything so we were on. Awful. Pushing and pulling the beat a bit makes for good music.

Old school, if you hit a clam on bass you had to live with it, "but the performance was good!" New school, you can fix it! I will always like performed music best, but I don't want to hear anybody's mistakes either.

Fetusyolk · #5 09-20-2009, 01:12 PM

i'm perfect, but i think human sounds better

Craigmartini · #6 09-20-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

Wasn't sure what section to put this in, but anyhow...

I'd like to see what people's thoughts are on recording and syncing the bass perfectly with the drums. I'm doing some funk recordings and arguing a bit regarding the 'perfecting' of my basslines and syncing them perfectly w the drums. If it's programmed beats I can understand doing that, but I really think it takes away from the groove when it's done with a live drummer. If something is off here and there, sure, but they're being (IMO) really crazy about the bass being dead on with all the kicks and snares. I also know that your ears have to ultimately be the judge, but it gets a bit complicated when you have 8 different ears hearing 4 different things. I also actually think when it comes to the groove it's more in your solar plexus (that you can feel differences) than your ears. And that's a tough one to argue when people are focusing on the music from a different perspective.

Are your bassparts tweaked to perfection? What's you take on the new school vs the old school way, and yeah... like that.

Thanks.

I guess I'll add that the recordings on my myspace page are all old school, and the basslines weren't perfected. Jest in case you're wondering if there's the possibility that my playing really needs all those edits they're doing. Maybe there is.

Joe,

I really kinda like the bass guitar and drums to be locked up pretty tight. With that said, if the tempo shifts a bit it's ok, but everybody needs to shift together in order for it to feel right. If your bass is not tight with the bass/snare drum though, you should try to tighten that up. I don't mean shifting your notes by editing it(awful). I mean replay it until you can make it tight.

Here is the thing though, if your band mates are looking at the wave peaks and seeing it a bit off then saying your off, that is crap. BUT if it sounds off to everybody, sometimes it can be helpful to zoom in and see if you are ahead or behind and be mindful of that on your next pass.

One other point to consider, are the drums played with good time and feel? If the bass/snare drum notes are not where they should be you will never be able to hook up with them.

If it is determined that the drums are good, I would suggest taking a copy of the drum tracks only home. You can put on a pair of headphones and play to it over and over again. Soon you will notice you are hooking up more and more with his tracks.

Another idea,
Did you guys try to record bass guitar and drums together at the same time? This way you guys are making the groove together instead of you trying to adjust to the existing groove.

So I agree with you, mechanical lining up of drum and bass notes is not the right way to go unless it is a one note mistake that only requires a quick edit here and there to save an otherwise great take.

Craig

capnsandwich · #7 09-20-2009, 04:27 PM

IME it really depends on the song. I work with an engineer that understands what it takes to make a song sound natural, yet still tighten things up when editing. It all comes down to the ear of whoever is responsible for the mixing and mastering. If the guy knows Pro Tools like the back of his hand but doesn't know a thing about music, well chances are you'll end up with a perfect mix sounding a bit too perfect. If you're dealing with a guy who understands feel and music and knows how to use Pro Tools, chances are you may take a little longer to get through the mixing process but the final product will sound very natural and organic. I'm lucky to deal with a guy who has the best of both worlds.

Mr. Lovejoy · #8 09-20-2009, 04:30 PM

Sometimes a slight discrepancy in timing and technique gives an unintended but desired effect for certain types of music.

Blind Rat · #9 09-20-2009, 05:46 PM

Human(Rat Like)

Craigmartini · #10 09-20-2009, 06:04 PM

Joe,

I just visited your myspace page. Bro......You don't need to be shifting/editing ANYTHING your playing. You sound great man! Let me know when the recording is done, I'd love to hear it.

Craig

**Drop-D** · #11 09-20-2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Lovejoy

Sometimes a slight discrepancy in timing and technique gives an unintended but desired effect for certain types of music.

“A man's errors are his portals of discovery.”

TimoMetzemakers · #12 09-21-2009, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

If something is off here and there, sure, but they're being (IMO) really crazy about the bass being dead on with all the kicks and snares.

That sounds like a bad case of Pro Tools-wielding busybodies. I hope you can talk them out of it.

Joe Nerve · #13 09-21-2009, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craigmartini

Another idea,
Did you guys try to record bass guitar and drums together at the same time? This way you guys are making the groove together instead of you trying to adjust to the existing groove.

First, thanks for the good words in the follow up post.

As for the above, I generally like to play with the drummer and do the tracks live. In this case though we recorded everything to a click that they couldn't take out of my headset (studio doesn't have the means). This became a whole different issue I'd like to probably start another thread about. I told them it was gonna suck if the click was as loud as the drummer cuz I'm going to wind up playing w one or the other... bla, bla, bla... needless to say, I had to do the tracks seperately and thankfully the guys understood this one.

Craigmartini · #14 09-21-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

First, thanks for the good words in the follow up post.

As for the above, I generally like to play with the drummer and do the tracks live. In this case though we recorded everything to a click that they couldn't take out of my headset (studio doesn't have the means). This became a whole different issue I'd like to probably start another thread about. I told them it was gonna suck if the click was as loud as the drummer cuz I'm going to wind up playing w one or the other... bla, bla, bla... needless to say, I had to do the tracks seperately and thankfully the guys understood this one.

Ahhhh.... I see. I still don't think they should be editing your playing though. If you are putting down tracks like you did on your other stuff I'd say leave it alone. Of course go back and punch glaring errors and stuff but I have a hard time believing you are way off from the kick/snare the whole time.

Keep up the great playing,

Craig

groooooove · #15 09-21-2009, 10:12 AM

not being "exact" is good for funk sometimes. but you still need to be tight.

Rickett Customs · #16 09-21-2009, 10:12 AM

Perfect = Sequenced, midi (for the most part).
Human = All sorts of phrasing, nuances and dynamics that are still too intricate for "Perfect"

At least that's my definition.

fullrangebass · #17 09-21-2009, 10:24 AM

I MAKE mistakes, so I am human and I am very happy to be so.

It's nice to be precise, but when a mistake happens more opportunities show up

TheVoiceless · #18 09-21-2009, 10:30 AM

I think with today's technology that people have a hard time deciding what to do. They way I see it is, depends on the music. If its what I call a performance piece then I would leave it alone. By performance piece I mean the bass part has a lot of dynamics, changes, possible leads. If its a backing track then go and align it in ProTools. Meaning if the bass track is continuous and constant. In fact I would even be ok with a keyboard/sample bass part that I could recreate live.

Phalex · #19 09-21-2009, 10:36 AM

Definitely human. I was doing some recording a few years back, and screwed the pooch on one part. I really wanted to go back and do it over. When we listened to the play back before we redid the part. It turned out that I screwed up in perfect time! It wasn't what I'd intended to put there, but it worked so well, we said "Meh" and left it.

MatticusMania · #20 09-21-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

First, thanks for the good words in the follow up post.

As for the above, I generally like to play with the drummer and do the tracks live. In this case though we recorded everything to a click that they couldn't take out of my headset (studio doesn't have the means). This became a whole different issue I'd like to probably start another thread about. I told them it was gonna suck if the click was as loud as the drummer cuz I'm going to wind up playing w one or the other... bla, bla, bla... needless to say, I had to do the tracks seperately and thankfully the guys understood this one.

I always recommend against playing to a click, as does my former drummer whom I just had a conversation with yesterday. Why screw with a drummer's own sense of timing, especially when theyre an awesome drummer who knows how to keep the groove.