Breaking into Nashville

[Boof]

It's gratifying to read that some have found some helpful stuff in my long post. I thought I should address one thing that frustrates a lot of people when they first come here. It's about "insiders."

I mentioned in my long post that the drummer you did a freebie with last week might think of you when someone he's playing with suddenly needs a bass player. That does happen. But you'll undoubtedly also see that drummer calling or recommending another basser - one of his "friends." This can look like a clique-ish thing. A LOT of newbies complain that "Nashville's all about cliques, and if your not in the clique, they won't call."

Not true. But it can look that way. Here's what's really going on (I'll use a personal anecdote).

Shortly after I moved here (as a guitar player, in the dark ages), I ran into a bass player at a music store, struck up a conversation, and was invited to a little freebie club gig he was doing. "Bring your guitar, man," he said, and I felt a rush. Wow - I get to sit in in Nashville! (I was pretty young and green.) I went, and the guitar player had some kind of emergency or something, and rushed out the door. He asked me to cover it, and use his amp & stuff. Wow again! I did great (for some reason). Everyone was really nice, complimentary, wanted my number, etc. I thought I was on my way. Drove home grinning and pounding on the steering wheel. The door had opened!

So, a couple weeks later, this bass player calls & says he's playing with a really good songwriter. I might like to hear the set, he says. So I go out, and there's yet another guitar player setting up. Good player. Solid. Not amazing though, and probably not as good as me on some things (that was my thought, anyhow). After the set I introduce myself to him, ask how long he's been playing with the writer. "I just got called a couple days ago," he says. He'd never met the writer before that. The bass player called him (my music store, cover-for-the-emergency buddy - that bass player).

Aha, I thought. I get it. It's a clique thing. Clearly, I'm not hip enough for them. I'm an outsider. He coulda called me, but he called his bud. It's an inside thing. I was crushed. The drive home that night was substantially different. For some weeks, my attitude turned really negative. The bass player called me to come hear a couple other things, but I didn't go to check them out. Why do I want to sit there, nursing the single coke that I could barely afford all night, and watch the insiders flaunt their status?

Some years later I worked as a writer & editor for a major guitar magazine. For that reason ONLY, a lot of people just moving to town were familiar with my name, and they'd look me up when they got here. One guy was very nice, and asked if he could buy me coffee or lunch sometime & pick my brain about getting going in town (not that there was all that much to pick, but... well...). We met. We hung. He played well... knew all the current style things that were all the rage. I talked to him on the phone every week or so. Tried to keep his spirits up & all. At some point, he met a singer who was doing a showcase for a label, and the singer told him that I was putting the band together. Ha! He figured he was in! So he calls, and I tell him I'd already booked a guitar player (I was playing bass by then). And this guy actually starts reading me the riot act. Rails about how I'm a snob, and it's all a clique thing, and who's ass does he have to kiss, anyway, and on and on.

And I said, "hold it, pal. This other guitar player came to town a little before I did. When my car went tits-up, he loaned me an old beater to get around in. We rode in tiny, stinky vans all over the South to play gigs for a bunch of wannabees who never amounted to anything, usually for really, really lame money. When I went through a divorce, he & his wife made sure I had someplace to go for Thanksgiving & Easter dinner. And when he was out of town & his wife went into early labor with their first kid, I'm the one who took her to the hospital. And ASIDE from all that, I've done a couple dozen of these showcases and a bunch of sessions with this guy. I KNOW what I'll get. I KNOW he'll come up with the goods, even if things get crazy or whatever. THAT'S why I called him. All that. Now, would I rather field this call from you, and explain that, or would I rather explain to him that I called someone I just met? Which would you do?"

I'm pretty sure the bassist in the first story had a similar history with the guy he called. Think of it this way; anyone who can give you a leg up has probably been here long enough to build some relationships. He wants to call people who've called him, people who've worked awful gigs with him, struggled alongside him, done successful gigs with him (he knows what they'll bring). Of COURSE he's gonna call people from that circle first, and you would too.

There are two kinds of players that I can almost guarantee won't "stick" here: One is the person who thinks it's a six-month deal. You have to BE here. People get used to you, get to know you, learn to trust you. That can take a while. Believe it or not, there just aren't a lot of folks sitting around all over town with gigs thinking, "Gee, I sure wish some decent bass player would move here!" If you can play, and get along and add to almost any situation you're in, you'll probably have some things to do before long. But you're simply not going to knock anyone out of a solid circle he's spent years cultivating a few weeks after you hit town. Could take a year to get a toe hold. Could take two. Or three. And it may simply never work out for you. (Don't mean to go all negative... it's just reality.)

The other guy I've almost never seen "stick" here is what I call the "browser." He wants real badly to be a Nashville session player, or tour with artists or whatever. But he's got a pretty cushy life in some other town, and he's not willing to give that up. So he comes here a couple times a year. Maybe more often. And he spends a lot of energy making the rounds, meeting people, talking things up, trying to sit in or whatever. And then he goes home to his good job and his paid vacation and his medical insurance and all that. Fine. But when someone says, "hey, there's a songwriter thing next Thursday. We're rehearsing Wednesday night. Pays fifty for the rehearsal, and a hundred for the gig," he just kind of snickers; he's not coming all that way for peanuts!

Actually, I kind of resent those guys, I have to admit. Everyone I know who's established here paid some dues. Free gigs. Lousy living conditions. Long stretches of dead space. Bad gigs, rip-offs by low-life club owners & producers & artists. You fight through it. You outlast it. You figure out a way, in spite of it all, to bring that good, helpful, "community" attitude to the next thing, and the next, and the next. And eventually, you really ARE a member of a community. There are people you count on, who can count on you. You've proven it to each other. You know what you're going to get from each other in terms of attitude AND playing, no matter what the situation.

And at some point, someone will probably think you should have called them - should have tried to help them out - instead of calling one of those snobs in your "clique."

If you want to do the Nashville thing, COME here. BE here. COMMIT to it. Come humble but confident. Come to learn, and to contribute. I believe there will always be room for people like that.

Rusty Russell

[MikeBass]

Originally Posted by cycler

wow Rusty:
ought to be required reading somewhere.

Both of his posts should be stickied someplace.
And to be honest, most of what he wrote applies to many major cities.

[cthoop]

I live in central Texas, and just graduated from college with an English degree (during which i got married, had a daughter and started a family). My dad was a band director for 30 years (just retired), and I've grown up hearing Zappa in the morning, Nanci Griffith in the evenings, and music theory quizzes for fun on road trips in the car.
I was fortunate enough to pay my way through college by gigging and recording with people in Texas and Oklahoma (and I somehow never had a class scheduled after 3:00 on Thursdays so I could gig all weekend), and I've spent the last six months as a foster case manager for a child placing agency in Texas. For the first time in my life, I am doing nothing that has anything to do with music, and it's driving me nuts.
Most of my dad's family lives in the Nashville/Franklin area (two brothers are lawyers... mostly divorce and Social Security stuff I think... super cool), and my wife and I have decided to move to Nashville in February 2011 so I can spend the next few years trying to be a working bassist.
I've made some contacts already, mostly through my dabbling in Texas music industry and our dealings with booking agents, smaller labels and management groups based out of Nashville, and through some family friends who have spent 30 years or so in the Nashville business. I really lucky to have some of these connections, though I don't now many of them will get me any gigs (but they may get me a handshake and a beer with someone who will.... fingers crossed).
Anyway, I don't really have a question here, as all your information here on TB has already been awesome and helpful, but I do hope to run into my soon-to-be-fellow-Nashvillians, and hopefully share some gigs, stages, or tape.
Thanks for everything guys.

[rockstarbassist]

My sister went to graduate school in NashVegas as well as did my now bro-in-law who went to med school at Vandy, and I'll tell ya if he has to do his fellowship up there I'm coming up there and I'm bringing my gear so will you see you cats around! I used to really dislike country but I played in a modern-country cover act a few years ago and I really enjoyed it.

Love Nashville. Only place besides Texas I'd ever live. I should've moved up there for a few years while sis was doing her 3-year doctorate studies. Oh well.

[cb56]

There's an old saying that goes "when you get to Nashville, pull into the filling station and get some gas. If the kid pumping your gas plays better than you, turn around and go home".

[zachbass02]

Originally Posted by rockstarbassist

My sister went to graduate school in NashVegas as well as did my now bro-in-law who went to med school at Vandy, and I'll tell ya if he has to do his fellowship up there I'm coming up there and I'm bringing my gear so will you see you cats around! I used to really dislike country but I played in a modern-country cover act a few years ago and I really enjoyed it.

Love Nashville. Only place besides Texas I'd ever live. I should've moved up there for a few years while sis was doing her 3-year doctorate studies. Oh well.

If you do end up moving here, just promise us that you'll never call it NashVegas again. JK...it's a great community and great hang.

[KeithPas]

Just had a very good friend move to Nashville and he found a very promising gig with an up and coming singer/song writer in a couple of months. He knows a few people and he is one of the most down to earth people you ever want to meet. He is also one of these people that has great luck; always falling into cool situations. He is a capable player but not nearly the most capable player in town. His goal was to have a ministry to Nashville musicians whether it be as a player or a roadie or whatever.

[Stick_Player]

And to be honest, most of what he wrote applies to many major cities.

Exactly. It's no different here in Los Angeles - except times 10.

[Bennet Pullen]

Originally Posted by KeithPas

Just had a very good friend move to Nashville and he found a very promising gig with an up and coming singer/song writer in a couple of months. He knows a few people and he is one of the most down to earth people you ever want to meet. He is also one of these people that has great luck; always falling into cool situations. He is a capable player but not nearly the most capable player in town. His goal was to have a ministry to Nashville musicians whether it be as a player or a roadie or whatever.

Mike Williams?

[KeithPas]

Originally Posted by Bennet Pullen

Mike Williams?

Yes, Mike Williams. He is doing great down there and he has really developed into a fine bass player.

[Rebop]

I know very little about the scene in Nashville but it is very intriguing to me and I eventually need to move outta Florida (I don't like it here and need to start looking around at different cities). How many of the bassist there double on upright bass as well? How much of a leg up would someone have that plays both upright and electric and has solid vocal chops? How big is upright bass in Nashville or is it an electric town?

[Boof]

On the surface, upright is all the rage. But even beyond that, it's a VERY good thing to have in your skill set in this town. A huge amount of acoustic music is cut here and toured out of here, and Americana is filled with artists whose music employs upright. Amos Lee comes instantly to mind (though I don't think "Mission Bell" was cut here). I believe some of that is owed to the fact that upright can be amplified so much better or more easily than in the past - it's just not the pain in the butt it used to be to get a good live sound on it. If you play upright well, and have studied how the music made here is played on upright, you'll be a big step ahead of those who only play electric. I have an acquaintance who plays with a huge rock icon. As big as they come, bar none. My friend is sort of an icon himself (you'd know his name). Said rock god (there's a clue) has told him, recently, that there will be upright on the next album, so he should "have that together."

[Rebop]

Thanks Boof. Your posts are incredibly insightful. Thanks for letting us uninitiated folks get a realistic glimpse into the Nashville scene! Maybe someday I'll work up the courage to move there.

[Lichtaffen]

All this is extremely insightful. I have no plans on moving to Nashville, but these principles applies to any place, any field. One thing I'd like to add is that having another "talent" that you can offer could set you apart from all the mere musicians. I randomly photograph band performances and offer the photos to the musicians. I've developed a great friendship with one particular band with no intention of anything but friendship. Next thing I know the bass player offers me a sub gig in another band he plays in. Would have never happened if I didn't donate my photography skills in the first place. Just another way to meet and develop friendships.

[Boof]

While it's true that the principles discussed with regard to musicianship and personal or social skills are similar to those that apply in any field and any place, Nashville's music world is not like that found in any other city. While there are countless casual and amateur situations that can be very rewarding to be found in lots of ways, navigating it successfully in the professional ranks is not likely to be any easier if you try to gain access through a side door (such as photography, as suggested in the previous post). In fact, going at it that way will most likely make it harder. I didn't say impossible... I said harder.

Getting your feet on the ground here is tough. Just getting heard in a good setting can be a long, difficult struggle. And there is a long line of people vying for each and every opportunity. You'll find pro-level players - who already know the ropes, the ins and outs of how things go here - checking out and playing even the smallest freebie gigs. Almost invariably, those will all be people who eat, sleep, breathe their instruments and have dedicated the current period of their lives to getting that toe-hold and making a place for themselves. If your introduction to a circle of players is based on some other skill, it may be very hard to change their perception of you to one of "bass player."

In the early-to-mid 90s, I'd already been here close to ten years. I had done a few fairly high-profile things... I wasn't killin' it, I wasn't "one of the cats," but I knew all the heavies pretty well, was accepted by them, and everyone knew I was a working bass player. To supplement my income and explore a longstanding interest, I began writing for magazines. Mostly music magazines. That career took off really quickly for me, and soon I was doing profiles of the players I knew for magazines like Guitar Player & Bass Player. Then general interest stuff like People mag & the New York Times, and more music mags around the world. I was still playing as my main thing, or trying to, but I was shocked to see that the perception of those who knew me had changed. I met one of my heroes - Larry Carlton - in the role of a writer doing a piece on him for G.P., then again for a bio that he asked me to write, then again to do some photography for promo and a magazine. This was great (!) in one way... hey, I was hangin' with CARLTON. At his place! In the studio, watching him track an album! Except that, while Larry knew I played and had done some real-world stuff, his impression of me was as a writer/photographer. It would simply not occur to him to think of me in that group of players that would come to mind. I'm sure that'll always be the case unless he happens to see me in a serious playing role by some chance.

In the last couple years, after some major life events, I've made a big push to work back into playing sessions and better live stuff as my everyday, only thing. There is hardly a name player that I don't know pretty well - many are good friends. They know I can play. They know I know what I'm doing in the studio and on a stage. But they've seen me with cameras hanging off both shoulders, coming in with the publicist or managers, in a role on that side of the invisible wall, and it's just really hard for some of them, somehow, to put me on that mental short list when they're thinking of players. They call me to shoot their CD packages, or promo shots, or write a profile when they need one for a website or whatever. And, frankly, it's more than a little awkward to "remind" people you know that you're a bass player. There are very, very few people (I can't think of any, actually, but I allow that there may be a few) who succeed in the pro ranks AND do something else at a serious level (for money).

It's HARD to build a rep here as a good, serious contender for work. The competition is fierce, and it seems they all play their asses off. Many or most went to a big-league music school & have those chops. They're mostly young and energetic and personable and devote every waking moment to making their playing careers happen. That's what you're up against. After nearly thirty years in town, my strong advice is that if you come here, do everything in your power to define yourself in everyone's mind as a BASS PLAYER.

[bjabass]

I have only little to add, I went to Nashville ONCE. A singer songwriter from here in East tn. decided to go to a (believe it or not) Nashville area (Hendersonville) talent show. We went as a band but most of the acts (I think near 60) were just singers from little cute girls to what sounded like professional classically trained singers. We got there early and they had brought in a group of sessions guys to back up the singers. They sat down with their numbers charts and played through the verse and chorus of about 50 songs in about an hour and a half. Some were originals. The sound was perfect, the playing was perfect and they backed up every singer who wanted them to. I wanted to pack my bass and leave and let their bass player cover the song for me. Very sobering for a part time 'experienced' bass player.

[dsanders]

Originally Posted by Boof

I've lived here almost 27 years, so I guess I can chime in on this.

First, I would quibble with the idea that playing ability is "secondary." It's absolutely true that if you're a jerk, or people sense that you're so overtly ambitious that you can't have a normal conversation, then playing great won't save you. BUT... this town is full of really, REALLY good players. It's pick it - or pack it. In nearly three decades here, I've seen countless hot-shots come to town from the coasts (or elsewhere), desiring the easier, laid-back life, a better place to raise kids, etc. Some arrive thinking it's all C chords and hay bales, and assume they'll walk in and show the hicks how it's really done. Almost always, they're stunned when they see how efficiently creative things are here, and how many killer players are vying for the work. Can't count the times I've seen this type get his butt kicked. This may be the only town in the world where your pizza delivery guy can very likely play you under the table.

That said, it's not about being Victor Wooten (no offense, Victor!). A bass player will find a place here if he/she can listen, groove, get tones that fit and inspire the other players, play lots of styles, adapt, work with people, be inventive, and most of all... SERVE THE SONG. It's not about how much stuff you can play. It's about making the song - and the singer - sound good.

I've toured and recorded here as a guitarist, bassist and trumpet player, and I can tell you that there is world-class rock, pop, R&B, Contemporary Christian (P&W!) and country recorded and played live here every day. Versatility is not merely appreciated; like all the foundational elements that make up a good (GOOD) player, it's required. And all that - what, to me, makes up a ready-for-prime-time player, isn't secondary. It's just assumed. Don't come here if both barrels aren't loaded as described above. Or if you do come, I hope you know your way around a pizza route.

Secondly, the attitude thing alluded to in previous posts, the getting along, the hang... That IS really important. Players want to be around people who are nice to be around. Sessions are usually (or should be) full of good humor, interlaced in the serious business of gettin' it done. It makes the workday go a lot better. And if you need to stick out, if you bring a negative "thang" to the process, if you're all about you instead of all about the song and making it better for everyone, they will look over your shoulder at the long line of good players behind you, waiting to load in, and ask one of them to come in and sit down.

I'm not sure I know anyone here who didn't play some free stuff while getting established. And you will see people whose names you recognize playing freebies quite often - if the music is good. You're a musician. You play. Sometimes the music, or the hang, or doing a favor for a friend makes it worth playing for no pay. And when you're starting out here, it's often the only way you'll get to plug in and play for a while.

The plumb work here is in sessions (you'll start with demos, and maybe move up to masters, which are records) and, to a lesser degree, touring. The usual path (if it's working for you) is that you find some scruffy live gigs, and meet some people that way. Then one of those new friends brings your name up for a few road dates. Mid-level stuff... maybe an older artist who's not on the charts anymore, or a noob who's got label interest, or maybe just a regular old club gig in Resume Speed, Iowa. It's work.

Then maybe you snag a good artist gig, and tour for a while. "Touring" here is not typically a matter of being out for months. You leave on, say, a Wednesday. Play three shows in different towns. And you're back Sunday night. In the Summer, with fair dates and lots more concerts, you might be out for a few two and three-week stretches.

At any rate, for many touring players, the eventual goal is to get enough session work going - or a writing deal, or maybe some production projects - that you can stay in town. I cannot count the people I know who have followed (or tried to follow) this basic path.

At every step along the way, your work will come from other players. The drummer you did the freebie with. His bud, the bass player who happened in on that freebie gig. Etc., etc., all the way up to the master session stuff. You don't "apply" for gigs. The bass player's leaving. The drummer and guitar player mention this bass player they did a free thing with last week... good groove, nice cat, really great tone. He's in. If you were the guy who got up off his butt, left the season premiere of "CSI Wherever," and went to play that little freebie, well...

There is some paying club work on Lower Broadway. You might make $80 bucks for a four-hour gig. Maybe more - some of the better bands (those who know how to entertain & pack the place - AND work the tip jar) make a couple hundred a man. But it's tip-jar based. The clubs on Lower Broad make money hand-over-fist, and they have a pretty steady system. Most guarantee $50 a night per man against tips. If you stink, or if the band playing next door that night has a fiddle player who looks like a centerfold (it happens), you might be taking home the fifty. A few clubs in other areas pay a little, but not many, and not much. People play them to showcase, or to keep playing, or to get a band together. Back in '84, when I came here, I left a very steady world of club & society work. My wife didn't have to have a job, and we did fine. The first night I worked in Nashville, I was thrilled because the singer/writer had two songs on the current Alabama album, two members of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band sat in, and I'd read a piece on the other guitar player in Guitar Player Magazine. Wow! I've made it already! That night, my take from the tip jar was $6. Six. Dollars. Ouch. But the drummer on the gig called me for another, and another. I worked a bunch with him for a while. A few years later, he formed the band Restless Heart. That's how it goes.

Another thing to get together is tunes. Silly as it sounds, know everything. You're not going to rehearse for a Lower Broad gig. You get a call, and you show up, and you make it sound like you've all been playing together since birth, even if you're subbing and you just met the guys for the first time while you were tuning up. I try to think of it this way - if I hear a classic rock or country or pop tune, I need to know it. Period. Of course you can't do that entirely, but you should try, cause looking in the eyes of a guitar player who just called the ONE dang Tom Petty tune you're not hip to is a lonely place to be.

You won't rehearse for sessions, either, except in some cases on REAL big projects, and by that time you'll know all this. You show up, sit around with the writer playing a guitar or work tape, make your own number chart (on bigger stuff, the leader often makes charts ahead of time), and go in and cut the song that you've just heard for the first time. Many, many, many of the records you've heard were cut that way. A run-through for arrangement, another to settle the parts, and it's red-light time. On a typical three-hour session, the goal is often to get five songs. And they'll sound like masters. Cutting fast while maintaining quality is a skill, or a bunch of skills that work together. After each keeper, you go into the control room or lounge, listen to the next song, make your chart, and do it again. It's a lot of pressure at first, but you get used to it, and it's fun. And this is a lot of where the being a nice guy thing comes in. That diffuses the pressure of the situation.

Lastly, number charts. Learn how that works. It's not rocket surgery, but it'll help to spend some time working that way before you get here. Know enough about theory that you REALLY know your keys. If you don't INSTANTLY know the 6 of Bb, you will NOT hit that G root with the drummer. Do that a few times, and they can't afford to call you again. Number charts make it possible to play a song right now, in any key, with any groove, and nail it. Learn to write and read number charts.

I hope all that is helpful or at least interesting to some. This is a great town. I wouldn't live anywhere else. You can form lasting, great friendships, raise a family humanely, live creatively, make a (somewhat) decent living most of the time, and always have the potential to hit a home run (big session career, songwriting success, whatever). Sometimes it seems like there are two million good bass players in town. But a nice guy who can play, and can leave the ego at the door, has a pretty good chance of keeping the bills paid. I should temper that by saying that, right now, things are as lean as I've ever seen them in Nashville. The record business has fallen apart, and nobody's really sure how it's all going to shake out. Even the vaunted "A-Team" session players are doing demos and a few tour dates these days. Just sayin'...

Rusty Russell

I've been in this town for 7 years. Rusty is 100% right and I'll add this. Regardless of the business I'm just proud to be a Nashvillian. People treat others with respect in this town and I'll look back in my latter years and be glad we raised our family here.

[Rudyboy98]

Man, all of these posts are great! It stands to say that Nashville players are a force to be reckoned with (in a good way). This is all very good advice. I'm not going to Nashville anytime soon...but if I ever decide to do it...this should be required reading for anyone making that move!

[bass32]

I'm a fairly new member of this forum and just now read through this thread. A very interesting look at the "How To" as far as the Nashville scene goes.
I grew up around music and recieved my first acoustic guitar when I was 11 yrs old and I've been plying ever since. Started on bass in 1978. I have fond memories of going to the dime store to pick up a single Black Diamond string for less than $0.50, cost depending on which string I broke! lol
I am fortunate to belong to a talented family. I also grew up around several friends that are very talented. One especially. He's the guitar player in the band that Boof mentioned in an earlier post, Restless Heart.
I remember back then how he could play circles around everyone. If I remember correctly, he gave guitar lessens when in was in junior high, but he would always sit down and pick with anyone no matter what their talent level was. He's still that way. He once sat in with the band I was in during one of our high school reunions. This was in the early 90's when RH was at the top.
Even with his talent and the success he has achieved, I remember him telling stories about when he first went to Nashville and a can of green beans would be his supper. I have always felt so bad about not being there to help him out.
With all that being said, I understand the talent level in Nashville and people's attitude. I did spend a week with my friend in Nashville in 1990, so I got a small peak of how things go. That's why I never tried it. I consider myself to be a good, solid bass player and a pretty good traditional country singer, but I don't believe I have what it takes to make it in Nashville. I'm satisfied being a big fish in the small pond where I live. The biggest thing I learned, have a positive attitude with people. Be nice. Talent levels vary, but no one is better than anyone else, just different.
My hat goes off to those who try. Take to heart the advice given in this thread. Check your attitude at the door, be humble, have your chops together, playing and singing and be prepared for a long hard road, but a rewarding one as well.
Good luck.

[Clearwave]

I have a few friends that have moved there and "made it". Meaning they tour with big artists, do decent sessions when they are home and sometimes I seem them on TV. In all cases, it took about 10 years of living in borderline poverty. I'm not saying they were miserable, they all seemed happy and enjoyed playing. It seemed like older musicians retired and they moved in their slot. "making it" means they live a modest middle class lifestyle, working about 40 hrs a week.

I also have some friends that didn't make it. They are great players with great personalities but they didn't stick around for that long. Maybe 3-4 years. Now they are selling insurance and live a nice middle class lifestyle.

My point is, if you're an incredible player, have a great personality, are an expert at networking and are a hard worker, it will take a while, but you'll be fine.