which scales to use while soloing over changes

[Jsilbert]

Hey Adam, I've been playing bass for about 3 years now, i've been to BNC at Wooten Woods and have been taking lessons from Anthony Wellington. I'm just starting to get into the idea of soloing using scales that don't always follow the chord (so not always Dorian for the II or Mixolydian for the V).

I was wondering for a song like Blue Bossa, when playing over the Cm7, I know it is the I, but couldn't I use Dorian, Phrygian, or Aeolian starting with the same root to solo over it because they have the 1, b3, 5 and b7 in common? Is there one that is more appropriate? And if so, could i use lines that run through the others, but then resolve on the appropriate scale or arpeggio? And also would I then not be able to use those same scales when it goes to the Fm7 or the II-V-I? And then when it changes keys from C minor to Db major, could i treat the Major 7 as a Lydian not always just an Ionian?

And also going back to the Cm7, and according to modes of melodic minor, could I use the second mode of melodic minor (Dorian b2) to solo over that because it has the 1, b3, 5 and b7 and then resolve in Dorian or Aeolian? Also could I use something like plain melodic minor, the 6th mode (1, b3, b5, b7) or the 7th mode (1, b3, b5, b7) and then resolve?

I'm new to all of this so sorry for the marathon question and thanks in advance. And just because I'm new to the terminology, is all of this called substitution? And does it work for the other altered scales too? And if i use an altered scale over let's say the Cm7 could i then use the same scale over the Fm7 or the II-V-I?

Thanks again, hope to see you this summer at Wooten Woods!

-Jesse

[adamnitti]

hi jesse-

this topic is a bit tough to cover comprehensively in a single post, but i'll try to address some key components for you. but before i comment on any of your questions directly, i think it is important that i first give you and anyone else reading this post some insight that i feel is very important. the questions in your post are all theory related and are, indeed relevant to the applications you are asking about. however, i want to strongly encourage you and other bass players to not get caught up in establishing an improvisational approach that is completely based on theory, or what i like to call "playing only the math." the other thing i want to mention is that if you are truly interested in developing your own voice and identity on the bass, academic components like scales and arpeggios are not a means to an end... in fact, a lot of players become married to scale/chord assignments and subsequently play with a 'one size fits all' approach that lacks any depth or dimension. the most important reason for avoiding this rut is that when we simply play the math, we are not able to effectively play using our ears. instead, we rely on visual components that are assembled together for the purpose of achieving an academic solution for mating melodic/harmonic ideas. realize that i have a lot of experience and training in theory but i have to tell you that my playing did not begin to elevate until i let a lot of that stuff go... the best advice i can give you if you really want to become great at improvising would be to spend a lot of time learning and transcribing solos from players that really move you. learn the lines they play note-for-note and memorize them. BUT, don't just learn the notes, learn HOW the notes are played. that means the dynamics, technical nuances of how they get the sound, and possibly most important, where the players place the TIMING of the notes. you will quickly find that there will be very few instances in which you will hear things like a complete scale or arpeggio used in its entirety. instead, you will hear fragments that flow together put together using spontaneous inspiration for the glue. when we learn how to improvise by learning and emulating other players who have their own identity on their instrument, it allows us to get outside of our head and inside the heads of those that move us musically. we are also forced to use our ears to lead our hands, instead of the other way around. then, by combining this approach with analysis of what you've learned using your theory knowledge, then you really get a more comprehensive and effective final result from your own playing.

i apologize for the long-winded introductory rant, but for some reason i felt led to make those disclaimers for the benefit of those who are just getting their head around this stuff. i also want to make sure that players don't fall into the same rut that i did when i first starting playing was learning to improvise, by getting locked into shapes, patterns and theory and not paying as much attention to musicality.

now, onto your questions!!!

Originally Posted by Jsilbert

I was wondering for a song like Blue Bossa, when playing over the Cm7, I know it is the I, but couldn't I use Dorian, Phrygian, or Aeolian starting with the same root to solo over it because they have the 1, b3, 5 and b7 in common? Is there one that is more appropriate?

in this case i personally wouldn't look at the Cm7 as being the I chord. my own approach is based on the idea of assigning function to the root of a chord based on key center, in order to impose a particular sound or color. for example, by default i would treat the root of a static min7 chord as a "ii" as a foundational idea, which in essence gives you a dorian sound. for example, over a Cmin7 chord you could look at the note 'C' as being the ii. that means Bb would be the I, and subsequently any of the Bb major scale derived modes would still give you the sound of C dorian over a Cmin7 chord. in the case of the tune, 'blue bossa', i would treat the Cmin7 as either a ii chord or a vi chord, depending on how i was hearing the line. (treating the Cmin7 as a vi makes the Fmin7 a ii chord, which makes the 2 of them diatonic to Eb major, but that's another discussion...)

you are correct in observing that min7 chords can be likewise built from the modes aeolian and phrygian... on the surface, that might suggest that dorian, phrygian, and aeolian could be substituted for one another over a min7 chord, but when you're talking about trying to play more traditional sounds or phrasing approaches it's really not a good idea to just arbitrarily interchange those modes because of how harsh or out-of-place they will sound in certain applications. if you are talking about jazz, fusion, blues, or other improvised music, generally speaking dorian will sound most traditional or 'authentic' as a base tonality. the phrygian mode (played from the root of a min7 chord) to my ears is the type of sound that might be more associated with spanish flamenco guitar-ish types of runs. it will be a much darker sound than dorian because of the b2 and b6... aeolian (played from the root of the min7 chord) you may hear used as a minor idea more in pop/rock/metal settings. *of course, i'm generalizing here for the sake of presenting some basic concepts... there are obviously many exceptions out there, but for someone who is starting out getting familiar with the different sounds of different modes this is how i try to convey their different characters before getting a little more advanced with substitution ideas...

Originally Posted by Jsilbert

And if so, could i use lines that run through the others, but then resolve on the appropriate scale or arpeggio? And also would I then not be able to use those same scales when it goes to the Fm7 or the II-V-I?

yes, but here again depending on how you phrase these substitutions they may come across to the listener as being disjointed or out of place... you will have to experiment and learn to 'breathe' with your phrasing in order to make connections that are smooth and melodic.

Originally Posted by Jsilbert

And then when it changes keys from C minor to Db major, could i treat the Major 7 as a Lydian not always just an Ionian?

yes, you could try 'resolving' to Db lydian instead of the Db major scale, if your intention is to impose a lydian sound over that maj7 chord. here again, it is all about what color or mood you are trying to impose over the harmony. lydian is frequently used as a substitution over maj7 chords in jazz. also, if you listen to jazz, you will actually notice that the major scale in its entirety is almost never used over a major chord because of the dissonance that comes from the 4th scale degree against the 3rd in the chord. instead, experienced players will employ more creative use of major scale tones that are often just a 'subset' of the scale, itself... the major scale (or any other scale, for that matter) sounds very amateur and square if you just run fragments of it back to back.

Originally Posted by Jsilbert

And also going back to the Cm7, and according to modes of melodic minor, could I use the second mode of melodic minor (Dorian b2) to solo over that because it has the 1, b3, 5 and b7 and then resolve in Dorian or Aeolian? Also could I use something like plain melodic minor, the 6th mode (1, b3, b5, b7) or the 7th mode (1, b3, b5, b7) and then resolve?

yes, but again it may not sound good.

[Jsilbert]

Hey,

First of all, thanks so much for responding! I really appreciate it!

I totally understand what you are saying about not getting caught up in the theory. I just love the "math" of it and I want to explore theory as ONE way of finding alternative sounds to maybe just playing in the key. However, I do think I need to play a little bit more with my ears rather than my eyes. Thanks for the advice i will absolutely use it! I find that the solos that may move me the most may not even be that complicated theory wise, but are just constructed so beautifully and emotionally that they stand out.

When I said the Cm7 as the i, I meant as the vi because in a minor key the vi is the I (or is that not how i'm supposed to say it?) and the ii-v-i resolves on that Cm7, so I assumed it was the i. When I have been playing the song, I have been playing the Cm7 as aeolian and I have been using all of the modes according to Eb major like you mentioned. Could I also play it as dorian though? Or throughout the course of my solo should I choose one sound (dorian or aeolian) and then stay with it? And would a way to add some "out" sounds be to maybe displace pentatonics or use tritone substitutions?

Also, is lydian used often in jazz over Maj7's because it gives that dissonant tritone? And what would be an example of "creative use of major scale tones that are often a 'subset' of the scale, itself?"

And just because I'm confused, what is the main purpose or purposes for altered scales and their modes?

Sorry for the bombardment of questions again, asking questions is how i learn best.

Btw, I'm going to be at your bass clinic at bass specialties on the 12th so maybe I'll ask you some in person!

Thanks again, Jesse

[adamnitti]

Originally Posted by Jsilbert

When I said the Cm7 as the i, I meant as the vi because in a minor key the vi is the I (or is that not how i'm supposed to say it?) and the ii-v-i resolves on that Cm7, so I assumed it was the i. When I have been playing the song, I have been playing the Cm7 as aeolian and I have been using all of the modes according to Eb major like you mentioned. Could I also play it as dorian though? Or throughout the course of my solo should I choose one sound (dorian or aeolian) and then stay with it? And would a way to add some "out" sounds be to maybe displace pentatonics or use tritone substitutions?

yes, you could use dorian over the Cm7, as well. that will obviously present a slightly different mood over that chord but i personally like that sound. switching between aeolian and dorian over that single Cm7 chord is going to be a bit of a wash because you only have 2 measures to deal with. as i see it, you are better off being more concerned with the fluidity of your phrasing and that may mean making a single basic choice and staying with it for the duration of those 2 measures. don't ever get into the mindset of forcing notes into a measure just so you can feel like you fully represented the sound of a scale... that will detract from the quality of your lines and sound contrived. as for 'outside' sounds, i can share with you a few of the ideas i like to use personally over min7 chords... sometimes i will use fragments of the (whole step) diminished scale or diminished arpeggios. other times i might take a phrase or motif and momentarily displace it by a half step or a minor 3rd to take it outside before resolving it back in place. this is an idea that works well applied to pentatonics, like you had mentioned before. sometimes i'll use wholetone scale fragments or ideas starting on the natural 7 to go outside before resolving, etc, etc. a basic sub that i'll use a lot over min7 chords is the use of the melodic minor scale to create that tension on the 7. these are just a few....

Originally Posted by Jsilbert

Also, is lydian used often in jazz over Maj7's because it gives that dissonant tritone? And what would be an example of "creative use of major scale tones that are often a 'subset' of the scale, itself?" And just because I'm confused, what is the main purpose or purposes for altered scales and their modes?

lydian actually removes the dissonance that occurs between the 3rd and 4th scale degrees of the major scale by increasing the distance between 3 and 4. in other words, playing the '4' over a maj7 chord is going to sound cross and dissonant if you put a lot of weight on that degree because it is a half step away from the 3rd in the chord. being that the 3rds and 7ths of each chord are the most defining chord tones anyways, you don't want your ideas to create static dissonance there. lydian will also give you a more 'open' or slightly unresolved sound over major 7th chords that imposes a different mood and character over the chord. as for 'subset' scale ideas, a good example is the use of pentatonics. for example, over a maj7 chord, you could use the minor pentatonic scale built from the 3rd degree. when you play minor pentatonic from the 3rd, you are playing the degrees: 3, 5, 6, 7, and 9 (2). these are 5 of the 7 tones found in the major scale. by using a substitution like this, you take away the 'mary poppins' nature of just running major scale fragments or ideas because now the ear is hearing a different order and use of intervals that don't follow such a strict scalar order. couple that with the fact that you are omitting particular notes altogether and it makes for interesting phrases with a different color. you also avoid the dissonance of the 4th degree altogether when using this approach. another similar idea that will impose for of a lydian sound is to use the minor pentatonic scale from the natural 7 over a maj7 chord. when you play it from there, you are playing the degrees: 7, 9 (2), 3, #4, and 6. that is essentially a 'subset' of the lydian mode, and subsequently gives you more of that sound when you use it. alterations used in chords (b9, #9, b5, #5) give them more tension, dissonance and color. typically in jazz, the V7 chord is altered, which thereby creates an even stronger resolution following. i was taught long ago to basically always alter a dominant 7 chord acting as a V. for improvising, you can use the altered scale over a 7 chord (1, b9, #9, 3, b5, #5, b7) acting as a V. the altered scale is the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale.

btw, if you want to dive into this stuff a lot more, i have a couple of pretty comprehensive improv courses on www.musicdojo.com that go through all of this in detail. in the meantime, i hope to see you at my bass clinic next week and get to meet ya in person!

all the best,

adam

[Jsilbert]

Hey, thanks again for responding! I really appreciate it! I think I'm gonna try one of those music dojo courses And see you this weekend!