fingering systems

[Tom Gale]

I find a bassist's use of various fingering systems to be very interesting. It might make a good thread. I, myself, use three - the closed hand (Simandl, 1,2,4, etc.), the open hand (Franke, 1,2,3,4, - 4 finger tech, etc,) with 1/2 step pivots in both as needed. When you have all three to call on as needed, it does make technical passages more accessible.
Take a common chromatic passage starting on open G;
g,g#,a,a#, b. - 4 16ths and a quarter. Most tempos would allow you to do the trad. Simandl 0,1/1,2,4. Keep increasing to tempo until that 1/1 is causing a blur in the musical sound. Now, switch to 0,1,2/1,2. Clean as a whistle! Thoughts and other examples??
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

[Tom Gale]

I thought this thread might be of interest to many bassists.
TG

[Les Fret]

Yes it is very interesting! I really liked our discussion about fingerings in the other topic.
Maybe you can give a set of notes or a short passage from a piece and other players write how they would play it.

Hope this topic comes alive!

[TheSuzie]

I will be checking in here. I'm not in playing shape right now but I can visualize what you are describing.

S

[Bowman]

I like the advertisement for ASODB here! As a student of Dr. Morton in Texas, I have been shown his system and it has made me Such a better bassist. I strongly encourage every bassist, jazz or classical, to download and study the Simandl-Plus Packet from the ASODB website!

[Les Fret]

Originally Posted by Tom Gale

I find a bassist's use of various fingering systems to be very interesting. It might make a good thread. I, myself, use three - the closed hand (Simandl, 1,2,4, etc.), the open hand (Franke, 1,2,3,4, - 4 finger tech, etc,) with 1/2 step pivots in both as needed. When you have all three to call on as needed, it does make technical passages more accessible.

when you use three different systems isn't it hard to make a choice sometimes? sometimes there are so many possibilities to play one specific passage that it is hard to decide which fingering is the best.
Also when you improvise using three systems it can be confusing sometimes and less intuitive.
How do you handle this?

[Tom Gale]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

when you use three different systems isn't it hard to make a choice sometimes? sometimes there are so many possibilities to play one specific passage that it is hard to decide which fingering is the best.
Also when you improvise using three systems it can be confusing sometimes and less intuitive.
How do you handle this?

I don't improvise so I can't answer that. Usually the musical phrase will tell you which achieves the musical result. Lets take - on the G string -
[,E,F,E,:]. Simandl = 1/2,.4/4,1, etc. Faster = 1,3,4,3,1 (open hand.)
Take [[, E, F#, E :]] - Simandl = 1/1, 4 / 4, etc....
OR 1, (1/2 step pivot) 2, 4 (open hand), 2, (pivot), 1. etc. The phrase will dictate.
Tom Gale ADSODB.com

[Tom Gale]

Originally Posted by Tom Gale

I don't improvise so I can't answer that. Usually the musical phrase will tell you which achieves the musical result. Lets take - on the G string -
[,E,F,E,:]. Simandl = 1/2,.4/4,1, etc. Faster = 1,3,4,3,1 (open hand.)
Take [[, E, F#, E :]] - Simandl = 1/1, 4 / 4, etc....
OR 1, (1/2 step pivot) 2, 4 (open hand), 2, (pivot), 1. etc. The phrase will dictate.
Tom Gale ADSODB.com

I have no idea where that weird green thing came from. It was D

[damonsmith]

Improvising at it's best is composing something profound in the moment and then playing it.
Knowing all the available options is a must!

[Arnold]

Mr. Gale,
I love your threads on fingering! If you were closer to me, I'd study with you. I always feel bad when the "old fashioned fingering school" shouts you down. I hope you share more with us.
Thanks.
ASG

[Les Fret]

Originally Posted by Tom Gale

I don't improvise so I can't answer that. Usually the musical phrase will tell you which achieves the musical result.

I like to take the Simandl left hand fingerings as the base and use the open hand and pivot also but see them more as an exception and use it mostly in the higher positions. Just to avoid the confusion.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by Les Fret

when you use three different systems isn't it hard to make a choice sometimes? sometimes there are so many possibilities to play one specific passage that it is hard to decide which fingering is the best.
Also when you improvise using three systems it can be confusing sometimes and less intuitive.
How do you handle this?

If I may, I also use those three basic systems (except in lower positions where four fingers is unadvisable for me), and it is especially in improvisation that having all of these options at hand is important. In terms of notes, melodic construction is simply a series of intervals. In preconceived (i.e. written or common knowledge) music, fingerings can always be worked out to find the optimal solution.

In improvisation, the improvisor in most cases isn't "hearing" all that far ahead so as to be in the moment. In most cases, from any given note to another there are going to be two most obvious places to play the second note, and several possible fingerings for each of these. The choices are made based on what direction the note following is going, so that the fingering makes sense not only for the first two notes (in which case almost any fingering will do), but for the 2nd to 3rd notes, 3rd to 4th, etc. Many times I find that the fingerings I come up with for lines end up being what I would have chosen if I had written the passage out beforehand, but many times I do not. Given the choice between executing a passage with a less elegant fingering and not executing it at all for lack of a great fingering, I'd rather choose the former! (And hope to evolve into being able to forsee the better fingering with more practice)

[Tom Gale]

Originally Posted by Arnold

Mr. Gale,
I love your threads on fingering! If you were closer to me, I'd study with you. I always feel bad when the "old fashioned fingering school" shouts you down. I hope you share more with us.
Thanks.
ASG

Don't start you car to travel down for lessons!! Only kidding. I retired from private teaching a number of years ago BUT I did put everything I know into my "Triangulation of Fingering Systems for Double Bass". If you want more info, private message me.
Tom Gale

[David Potts]

As I get older I am getting tired of splitting hairs over which is the best fingering. I"ve also pulled so many hairs out of my head that I am bald!! You can look me up on www.musicteachers.com.au and follow the links to confirm this!!

I use 1 2 3 4 all over the neck up to F sharp below 1st octave G on the G string. I can add a 1/2 tone pivot to this but often do as Tom suggests and switch to 1 2 1 2.

On the E string in !/2 and !st positions I will close my hand if possible just for those four notes. This is because of the weakening effect of pronating the left wrist as well as the discomfort. If I use 1 2 3 4 here my intonation is very suspect on the G and A flat.

Even numbers of notes permit two notes per position in walking passages up the G string. If there are odd numbers of notes I try to adjust in lower positions to set up walking two notes per position, or in thumb position finish + 1 2 for example. All this supposes lack of interference from slurs, bow retakes and string crossings, and all the other twists and turns in the music.

On G string A B C is 1>2 4, a b c d is 1 4 1 4, A B C D E is 1>2 4 1 4, etc,etc

I try not to start a run up or finish a run down on my 4th finger, or finish a run up on my 1st, unless there is a very good reason such as leading to a logical string crossing in the final position. This also minimizes the distance shifted.

I play 1 2 3 4 but teach 1 2 4 in the sequence !st Position, 1/2, 2nd, 3rd, 5th. By then the student has a clear understanding of how the fingerboard works and has enough technical strength to take on the ideas of 1 2 3 4 and pivoting as applied to pieces like Galliard Sonata 2nd movement.

I believe in minimizing the same finger shift eg A Bflat C as 1>1 4, and would prefer teaching 1 2>4 as way to keep changing fingers and permit speed or, later, pivoting. Many of the Zimmerman fingerings are too academic and don't take speed into account. I never discredit them completely with students but use them as an excuse to explore alternatives that work at any speed. We try to work out at least two good fingerings.

I'm sure that I am not saying anything startlingly new to you guys. Perhaps all I can say to students is to approach learning the fingerboard systematically with a very clear mind, understanding each step of the way and asking lots of questions. The notes are in fixed places on the fingerboard and the role of good fingerings is to connect them logically so they can be played at any speed with the expession you want.

"Perfection is within my reach but slightly out of my grasp" (quoted from a comic strip whose name I can't remember - please excuse my senior's moment! Is it Abergail?)

Regards

DP

[damonsmith]

Really learning the fingerboard is really key in terms of using multiple systems. That way you use the fingering you need to play the line, not find the notes.