Learning double bass along with violin (or another instrument in general)

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I can't address this specifically as regards the exact two instruments in question, but since the question has been sitting unanswered for a while, I thought I'd get the ball rolling:

Originally Posted by jojoUK

Hi
my name is JO and I am UK based.
I am an adult learner of violin and double bass.
I started on violin 3 years ago and am at grade 5 (going by ABRSM standards), then I have taken up the double bass 8 months ago and my teacher would like me to take the grade 5 ABRSM exam soon.

I was surprised by how quickly I have learnt the double bass compared to the violin, is this because a lot of the skills are 'transferable' between the instruments? or is it because I am just 'better' at the double bass (by the way it's classical double bass I learn not jazz).

I have to say I don't practice regularly on the double bass, not because I don't like practicing but because the violin takes most of my time (I do 2 and a half hours a day on this).

what I would like teachers to discuss if possible please:
pros and cons of learning 2 different string instruments like violin and double bass.
If one learning one instrument does not practice much on the other, will they still progress on both as the skills are transferable/interchangeable? (sorry I hope I make myself understood)
I get the feeling I keep progressing the double bass because of all the practice I put into the violin (I practice bass about 3 to 4 times a week for 40 minutes or so vs violin daily for 2 and a half hours).

I find I have to play violin first followed by double bass if I practice both the same day as if I play on bass first then the violin feels so small I can't play it for the first half an hour!

Could learning these 2 instruments together cause any problems anywhere? (not sure what, just asking)
thank you in advance
Jo

First off, congratulations for having the willpower to study two new instruments as an adult! A question for you: what are your eventual goals for each of these instruments? Which do you hope to end up playing more, and in what kind of musical contexts?

As to the question of whether study on the one is transferable to the other, my answer would be both yes and no. Music is an art and a journey, and the instrument is the vehicle. Each vehicle has its own skill set involved in learning to operate it, and these skills sets are largely non transferable except where they overlap. The process of bowing and drawing a sound from the string, for instance, might overlap somewhat even though the physical posture an musculature involved are very different. I have a wonderful student at the university at the moment who was a great cellist before he came to school to study jazz on the bass. What he learned on the cello made his transition to the bass much easier, and in only a few short years he's playing extremely well. While he still has a ways to go in pulling a huge acoustic sound pizzicato, he can bow absolutely anything that comes his way on the bass, and bow it well (he's even placed as a runner up at an orchestral bass audition last semester).

Other things, like musical sensibility, awareness of articulation, melodic sense, and anything not directly technique related will certainly transfer from one instrument to the other with only technique to hinder the end result. I've played three different instruments professionally (four, if you count the bass guitar) in my life, but in a more or less sequential fashion. When going from one to the next, I've always felt that the music was always there waiting to come out, and that the only hindrance was my lack of technique on the instrument. By the time I got to the bass in my mid 30's, there was a large musical stockpile of information and ideas just waiting to come out that would start to flow as soon as the technique would allow.

Curiously and somewhat related, I recently resumed martial arts training after a 15-year hiatus. I am going to the lessons twice a week with my wife and son, and our interest was in the study of a defensive/grappling art, so that is what we all signed up for. But since the academy allows us to study all we want for a monthly fee, and since there is a gap between the child and adult classes and I would have to wait for the adult class anyway, I decided to go ahead and take the class that meets in between as well. Even though it's a very different art (a striking art), I notice that there are principles which overlap from one to the other, and which help each other: balance, awareness of distance, basic coordination, flexibility, core centering and strengthening, etc. I didn't really expect this to be the case, but it has been a pleasant surprise. i suspect you'll find much the same with your two instruments. Kudos to you for your hunger to study both, and enjoy the journey! Hopefully someone will be able to give you some more specific anecdotes/information to your situation in the thread.

[Heifetzbass]

Hi,

Chris has some very valid points about the learning of multiple instruments and his ideas are well written. I concur about those concepts and principles.

However, on the more practical side, I teach and play both of these instruments. I started as a bassist and have learned the technique and pedagogy for each instrument. I am a public school orchestra teacher and must be able to demonstrate all four instruments at a fairly proficient level. Ie. up to 5th position on all instruments.

The bow concept is fairly consistent across the instruments, but the motion used for the lower strings is quite a bit different and can lead to some larger arm difficulties on the bass. (Think long notes) Also, the amount of attention placed on keeping the bow perpendicular to the string is much less on the smaller instruments. (There is much more hair contacting the string in proportion on the violin.) This always is an issue at first with a violinist/violist trying to play bass.

The left hand fingering system is completely different, and violinists always have trouble with their fingers pronating back towards the nut. Correcting this problem takes a lot of focus and can be very detrimental to intonation. Also, the thumb position can be tricky for violinists as they like to wrap the thumb rather than keeping the nice "C" in their hand. Not to mention finger strenghth!!

I can demonstrate correct technique and form on all four instruments, but I don't feel completely comfortable until I pick up a bass. I would suggest at somepoint that you must figure out which instrument you have the most passion for and devote most of your time to it. If you want to just "play for fun" on the other, it won't be that much of a problem.

I had a private bass student about ten years ago that made the All-State orchestra on violin one year and first chair bass the other. He started on the violin! He graduated from Eastman undergrad and Duquesne masters on the bass.

Sometimes I think that people that start on other instruments make the best bass players.

BG

[Sam Sherry]

I played violin (badly) from 3rd grade to 12th grade and began playing DB (badly) in 12th grade. There were a few concerts where I played both -- put down the bass, walk around the back of the orchestra, pick up the violin. Our teacher, the late Charles Palmer, was always willing to indulge anybody who had zeal to play.

From what I could tell there was minimal technical crossover. I chose French bow on DB but the wrist was all different on violin, and on the low level I played violin there were no considerations of usage of back muscles. As Brian has noted the concept of bow-speed, which is SO integral to playing DB, is a musical rather than technical issue on violin. On the left hand, the fingering and and the vibrato concept are each completely different.

The way that playing the two instruments in orchestra helped me most was in understanding the music and no getting too caught up in one tiny part of a symphony.

Brian's note about playing for fun is right on target (as usual). Have at it, JoJo. Don't let anybody stop you from making a joyous noise.

[jojoUK]

thank you so much for your contributions so far, appreciate it!

Violin is my 'first love', I intend to become the best i can on it, I have a very serious/experienced teacher and I chose him amongst others as he teaches me just like he would teach a child with tremendous talent. On violin I want to learn all the technique as best as I can and reach very high places!

Double bass: I love the double bass mainly in orchestral settings, whenever I go to listen to an orchestra it's the double bass I like and hear standing out and I always wanted to be in that corner playing with them

So double bass for me it's 'just for fun', ie to be able to play 'reasonably well' in an amateur orchestra playing all sorts of classical repertoire (although I do love to listen to double bass soloist, I like Roman Patkolo a lot)

violin: I have the target to achieve a high qualification (ie top of the ABRSM diplomas) and be VERY VERY good at everything , to play at high standard both as a soloist and as an orchestral player

hence why I spend 7 days a week practicing violin for 2 to 3 hours (cannot afford anymore working full time and overtime) and practicing double bass 'irregularly' approx 3 times a week for 40 minutes.....

But yes, I was wondering whether playing the bass would be detrimental to my violin learning or helpful and the other way round....

Thank you once again by the way!

[David Potts]

I admire anyone who learns two instruments simultaneously. What you learn on one does carry over in many ways to the other and is time not wasted.

While the very basic principles of string playing apply to both (this gives me the courage to examine all strings) the technical differences need to be carefully pigeonholed (kept separate). One of the greatest differences is Left Hand shape, span and approach to the neck. Hold your hand up with palm facing you and fingers together to check. On bass the index finger opens back in a vee towards the nut and remaining fingers point across. On violin the fingers turn diagonally towards the bridge, which doesn't work for the bass. The broad principles of bow hold, R arm movement, 90 degrees, steady contact point, etc, need to be transferred between the horizontal violin and almost vertical bass.

All in all, there are enough differences to successfully separate one from the other. They operate at different ends of the frequency spectrum.

The only physical drawback I can think of relates to the length and shape of each finger. I think that the best shaped hand for most instruments is a fairly square and broad palm with index finger shorter than ring finger and little finger a bit longer than the last joint of the ring finger. This shape squares up nicely to the instruments that need this, eg Bass,cello, clarinet,oboe, piano,etc. It also allows the pinkie to function well on violin, viola,flute,etc, that turn their hands. Broad pads and fingertips with callouses work well for bass and cello, narrow pointy finger ends work well for violin.

The most important distance in the world lies between your ears, especially as an adult!!

Cheers......

DP

[kurt muroki]

hey, I play the violin and bass. The most important thing is to realize that the technique is exactly the same with some small differences. Practice in a way that helps both instruments... this is the most efficient way of playing both. Also you have to know what will be detrimental to both... pressing too hard and tension.

[catty]

Me too...although I don't play violinistic but rather fiddle style: cajun, scandi, irish...

I started studying playing instruments at age 8, and have been a student of technique of all kinds throughout my life.

I always say that bass playing is more like doing carpentry, compared with the fine and subtle manipulations required for violin.