Teaching the dotted eighth and 16th.

[Tom Gale]

I believe this is one the most difficult pattern to teach. It usually slips into a triplet pattern in error. I approached it after teaching 16ths in groups of 4, an eighth and 2 16ths and then the reverse -2 16ths and an eighth.
Next came groups of 4 16ths with the first three tied together.
Then came the 8th and 2 16ths with the 8th tied to the first 16th.
If that went well, now comes the dotted 8th and 16th.

The idea is avoid the student going home and playing it wrong for a week.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

[Jack Clark]

Originally Posted by Tom Gale

Next came groups of 4 16ths with the first three tied together.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm thinking that if I don't get it, there might be someone else out there like me. So, my question is:

Wouldn't four 16ths with the first three tied together sound the same as a dotted-eighth and 16th? Or is there a "swing"-type difference? Or . . . ?

Thanks much.

[dtosky]

Yes, wouldn't "groups of 4 16ths with the first three tied together" be the same as a dotted-eight sixteenth rhythm? You also describe "the 8th and 2 16ths with the 8th tied to the first 16th" which would seem to be rhythmically equivalent as well. Do you differentiate these notations because of how your students perceive them? Do you students play the rhythm differently when they see an actual dotted-eighth sixteenth?

[moles]

I think that's the point Tom was making. (Correct me if I'm wrong, sir) Rather than springing a dotted eighth plus sixteenth on the student, and having them reading it wrong and/or turning it into a triplet thing, you have them read tied 16ths, which may be easier to understand at first as it's presented in a somewhat clearer way.

I use the term "clear" in the sense that it's easier for a new student to see what's happening - obviously once you understand a dotted eighth plus sixteenth, that is a less cluttered way to write the rhythm out.

[Jeremy Darrow]

Originally Posted by moles

I think that's the point Tom was making. (Correct me if I'm wrong, sir) Rather than springing a dotted eighth plus sixteenth on the student, and having them reading it wrong and/or turning it into a triplet thing, you have them read tied 16ths, which may be easier to understand at first as it's presented in a somewhat clearer way.

I use the term "clear" in the sense that it's easier for a new student to see what's happening - obviously once you understand a dotted eighth plus sixteenth, that is a less cluttered way to write the rhythm out.

I'd go one step further and say that by the time the student is asked to learn what dotted eight-sixteenth means on the page, they have been doing it on the bass already. Rather that learning a new rhythmic figure, and what it sounds like, and how to play it, the student only has to recognize a new name for something they've been doing already. Is that correct, Tom?

There was an educational philosopher, whose name is escaping me now, who described this technique as introducing "the thing, before the sign". That's my over-simplified interpretation, but I think it get the point across.

[Tom Gale]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Darrow

I'd go one step further and say that by the time the student is asked to learn what dotted eight-sixteenth means on the page, they have been doing it on the bass already. Rather that learning a new rhythmic figure, and what it sounds like, and how to play it, the student only has to recognize a new name for something they've been doing already. Is that correct, Tom?

There was an educational philosopher, whose name is escaping me now, who described this technique as introducing "the thing, before the sign". That's my over-simplified interpretation, but I think it get the point across.

Exactly - always from the known to the new....

Tom

[Jack Clark]

Ah, getcha now. Good idea!

[David Potts]

I generally have some pretty rapid success by first me then the student vocalising (not playing) the pattern ONE 2 3 FOUR and making a clear distinction between 1234 and 123. Then with the bow held above the strings we mime the bow action as we call out 1234. I will often stand beside the student and ask him to move in unison with me. I suggest that the sixteenth note belongs to the following note like a grace note, something like DAH..........DEE DAH.........DEE,etc.

If necessary I ask the student if I can grab their bow hand and elbow and move them strongly (my own house rule is that I must ask for permission before I touch a student in any way so they don't die of fright!!)

Finally have them play notes with very definite movements while calling out aloud until their brain accepts the pattern. The calling out loud to accompany strong movements rams the message home very quickly.

What I have described above is for the repeated linked bowing called Hook Stroke (down.... down up......up down). The same repeated pattern un-linked (down.....up down.....up down) presents a different technical problem - how not to gradually run out of bow. This pattern is the one that so quickly can sound like triplets.

The piece by Norman Hester called "The Bull Steps Out" in Ragtime with swung triplets is a very useful counterfoil for Hook Stroke.

DP