*sigh* another general theory request

[dazole]

Ok, I've been going through so many posts I had more tabs open that notes on a 24 fret bass. Unfortunately, every time I start reading, my mind glazes over with "when did they start writing in french" syndrome. All the theory instruction posts stopped making sense.

I'm going to ask about theory in different way, one I really haven't seen yet. Can someone give me some songs that show examples of various scales, triads, modes, etc? I learn much more better* when I can apply the info that way. I don't care if the songs are "mary had a little lamb", I just need some examples of: Song name/artist: 30 sec's in, Fmaj, using I,IV,V (yeah, I probably didn't say that correctly).

My theory is, if I know a particular thing is in a song, I can learn the song and the thing at the same time. Learning the application of the thing, not just the thing.

Please, and Thanks!
David

*yes, grammatically incorrect. It's a reference to a sketch in a TV show my daughter used to watch, The Amanda Show.

[groooooove]

i'm a little unclear what it is you're asking.

you want specific examples of songs using any given progressions, modes, scales, ext?

i'd reccomend spending some time on musictheory.net and going over their lessons. or, narrowing down your request and being more specific so we can have an easier time helping you.

[dazole]

Originally Posted by groooooove

you want specific examples of songs using any given progressions, modes, scales, ext?

Yes, exactly. Examples of:

Songs with various Maj scales featured,
Songs with triads featured, etc.

There are numerous posts about what all this is, and numerous posts about learning various songs, but I've seen few posts that combine the two from a teaching perspective.

A pitiful example. I can play "For Whom the Bell Tolls". All the bass parts. However, I have no idea where the music theory fits into that song. I mean, there's gotta be *something* there, right?

Does that make more sense?

David

[sleepytime]

Do you play metal? If not, just your garden variety major and minor scales will cover most ground. Are you looking beyond those, or do you need to start there?

[dazole]

I like to play metal (Rock, Hard Rock, some Classic, etc). but, I don't want to be a player that *only* root note stuff. I order to be able to do that, I need more theory. Otherwise, I'd be done and I'd only have to work on speed/accuracy

I'd like to be able to put in nice, appropriate fills, some changes, etc, etc. If we're doing a song in GMaj:

1) I need to be able to recognize that
2) I need to be able to figure out what would sound good with that without "just guessing"

Basslines that are good rather than just "there".

[Roy Vogt]

Triads-Light My Fire by the Doors (bass line)
Minor scales-Roundabout by Yes (bass line)
Diatonic I-ii-iii-IV chord progression-Here There and Everywhere by The Beatles
I-ii-iii-bIII-ii-bII-I progression-Changes by David Bowie (Intro)
I-vi-IV-V progression-Every Breath You Take by the Police, Crocodile Rock by Elton John
These should get you started.....

[sleepytime]

It doesn't rock like Metallica, but the instructor in this video illustrates the major scale pretty effectively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw7lxdiL7NI

[sleepytime]

Originally Posted by dazole

I like to play metal (Rock, Hard Rock, some Classic, etc). but, I don't want to be a player that *only* root note stuff. I order to be able to do that, I need more theory. Otherwise, I'd be done and I'd only have to work on speed/accuracy

I'd like to be able to put in nice, appropriate fills, some changes, etc, etc. If we're doing a song in GMaj:

1) I need to be able to recognize that
2) I need to be able to figure out what would sound good with that without "just guessing"

Basslines that are good rather than just "there".

It's easier if you know the chord changes going in, rather than trying to pick it up on the fly. If something doesn't sound right, ask the guit if he is using an exotic mode over a certain chord. Don't expect him to know.

In heavier music, often you can just use the notes of a riff and merge them with the rhythm of the drums. Alter a note here and there and lay a nice groove. If you are not copying a bassline, it helps if you can hear something in your head that works and know how to get there.

[wideyes]

Being able to recognize intervals is a good place to start. For example, "Smoke On the Water" plays the first note of the scale, then the minor third (third note of the scale, except a half step down, cuz it's minor), then the fourth, then repeats ad nauseum like we all know so well OTOH, "Blister in the Sun" by the Violent Femmes features a first, then a major third, then fourth note pattern.

Theory is really just an understanding of the relationships (read: distances) between notes. Recognizing your intervals is a good first step.

An example of the fifth interval is "Crazy Train" by Ozzy. The first two notes of the main guitar riff are the one, the third note is the fifth, the fifth note is the minor sixth.

Sleepytime is right on with his recommendation: learn the major and minor scales, learn the intervals of those scales and what they sound like, and then once you've internalized that and are comfortable with it, maybe you can practice tossing a note out and seeing if you can figure out in your head what note would be its major third, its diminished seven, etc. For example, if you think, "What is the major third for the key of E", then count your semitones, you arrive at G# (Ab). Minor third would be G. Your major fifth will be B, your minor sixth C. Etc. etc.

[MalcolmAmos]

Music theory in a nut shell. We have three things going in a song. Melody, harmony and rhythm. I'm going to take on harmony first. Harmony - the chords. A verse tells a story. Starts at rest the I chord is a good candidate, the story builds tension - chord progression moves to the IV chord. The story builds to a climax - V7 chord. OK your story is at the climax so you should resolve the progression and return to rest - I chord. Recognize that old I IV V I progression - it's used in thousands of songs. Four line verse. First two lines will normally complete a I IV V I progression. That same progression will be repeated in the last two lines of the verse. Call up some fake chord sheet music and see how this works. Country and Rock songs follow this very closely. The ii and the vi are thrown into the mix just to liven thing up.

Now melody - the melody line and the chord progression should share some of the same notes, i.e. for your melody to harmonize with the chords used under it they should have some - at least one - of the same notes in play at the same time. Think of it this way. When do you need to change chords? When the melody moves on to notes not found in the old chord. When this happens you go out of harmony -- time to find a chord that does have some of the new melody notes in it's makeup. Give this some thought, to build a melody line gather your notes from the chord's pentatonic scale. The pentatonic scale will have three chord tones (chord notes) and two safe passing notes. You are going to harmonize.

Magic time - The I IV V chords have every note in the tonic scale. Every one and not one outside of the tonic scale. To harmonize that new melody you only have to look at two of those three chords -- you old chord is not harmonizing try one of the other two. You have a 50% chance your choice will work. If it does not then you have a 100% chance that other one will harmonize. Remember you've got a I IV V I going twice in each verse, you probably do not have to do much just leave this progression as you have it (no need to mess up your chord journey from rest, tension, climax and return to rest) you will harmonize sooner or later. You can if you like insert the harmonizing note into one of your I IV V chords as an extension, C6, C7, Cmaj7, Csus2, then all those 9's 11's and 13's come into play. Do those fancy chords make a little more since now?


Rhythm. When you play this song does your head move with the beat? If your head is not moving you need to work on the rhythm. A string of notes is noise. We like to hear phrases with little rests - that's how we talk to each other. Use that as a guide. The melody needs breathing room.

That's music theory in a nut shell. Grab some fake chord sheet music and see if that I IV V is being used. If you can read standard notation see if the treble clef notes are shared with the bass clef notes. I bet they are.

I'm hoping you have not looked at it this way and this opens a door. Take this and go to your favorite songs see if they followed any of this.

www.musictheory.net go to lessons then Common Chord Progressions. Look at what chords like to go to what other chords. If we let them go where they like good things happen.


Ask Google to bring up something on harmonizing a melody line.

Good luck

[Chris K]

The unability to link therory to practice is a very common problem. The underlying problems are the unablity to read music and lack of basic ear training. Learning psychology shows that what is learned through heraring only, will be less solid compared to what is learned through both hearing and seeing.

[JoZac21]

If this helps at all, great examples of Dorian:

- Moondance - Van Morrison
- Story in You Eyes - Moody Blues

Mixolydian:

- Almost every James Brown tune

I'd give more... but bourbon makes it hard to type.......

[progrmr]

Blues Blues Blues - learn 12 bar blues in various keys to get your I-IV-V, 1-3-5-3, ii-V turn arounds...IMO blues is the best genre for learning theory - it sounds cool, you will learn your theory, and you'll learn by doing which IMO makes everything stick much faster.

As for examples - get Mel Bay Blues Bass, excellent intro to blues fundamentals. Check out some Stevie Ray Vaughan, Chuck Berry, Howlin Wolf, etc. My bass instructors band also plays a lot of blues (he plays guitar) - check out their newest CD "Hurricane Jerry and Stormfront: Blues You Can't Disguise".

[Grantrudd]

Im pretty sure that i might get some grief for saying this, but i think the best thing you can do is just suck it up and crack open the books (or website). Learning by doing is fine, but it takes a lot longer to actually understand what is going on. getting a basic understanding of scales and how they work will give you the knowledge to go and analyze some tunes, which will give you the tools to use this knowledge. it doesnt help much to hear a ii-V-I progression when you dont know why it works...

Doing it in reverse will get you to the same place, but much slower. its kind of like trying to be a doctor with no med school. you will eventually learn it, but you will make mistakes and will just end up more confused down the road. do it right now and save the hassle!

[JTE]

Ya mean like how Jack Bruce uses an Amin7 arpeggio under the first part of "Badge"? Or how the opening guitar lick on Dickie Betts' (Allman Bros.) "Ramblin' Man" is pentatonic major? Or the descending guitar riff on "Funk #49" (James Gang) is pentatonic minor? Or the bridge on "Dancing In The Streets" starts on the 3 and cycles through the circle of fourths to get you back to the 1?

You only learn this stuff with your instrument in your hand, with you singing what you're playing, and by listening. Not by reading. It also only makes sense if you build your theory chops in an orderly manner.

Search this forum for "theory progression" for some very good discussions about what order to learn things.

John

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Grantrudd

...i think the best thing you can do is just suck it up and crack open the books (or website).

+1

Just like knowing how to recognize, write and say the 26 letters of the alphabet (before you start reading) opens you up to millions of books, the same applies to music theory.

[jarrhead]

Dazole, check out Sequoia Throne by Protest the Hero, since you like metal. It uses an Eb Minor blues scale. Very groovy.

now for SHAPES, look up their song "The Dissentience" It uses some serious shapes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB5HPxgVnT4

[dazole]

Everyone: Thank you very much for all the examples! I'm going to be busy over the next few...$TimeSlices taking apart and analyzing them.

For everyone who suggested cracking open books, etc. I have done, do, and will continue doing that. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. And at some point, when the budget allows, I'll start taking lessons again, I'm just not there yet.

Thanks again!
David

//The Sound of Music, lol!

[jb63]

Don't Stop Believing by Journey is perfect example of a bass line that is made up entirely of scale notes. In this case E major. I have my students play this one only in first position (one finger per fret). It is also a good left hand work out.