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#1
08-28-2013, 11:10 AM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Jackson, Ohio
12/8 compared to 4/4

I was writing a piece of music, and realized that it couldn't be notated exactly on Guitar Pro 6.
The basic idea is a groove in 4/4 with two 8th note triplets leading back into beat one. Then, the same groove but with 4 eighth note triplets leading bak into beat one, but starting at the same time as the 2 triplets.
This is basically a bar of 4/4 but minus 2 8th note triplets. (I know it sounds nonsensical, but it surprisingly stable)

I tried to resolve the notation problem by changing the 4/4 minus 2 8th triplets to 10/8 time.
So my question is, does the beat value of 4/4 have the same duration as 12/8 if at the same tempo? And by beat, I mean the quarter note in 4/4 and the dotted quarter in 12/8 (some people think of it as 12 beats of 8 and some think of it as 4 beats with 3 subdivisions. (Me)

I know in some classical pieces, when switching from 3/4 to 9/8 for example, the quarter note becomes the dotted quarter, only different division. Rather than the 8ths remaining the same and leaving the 9/8 bar 3 8ths longer than the bar of 3/4(6/8). Even without a specific notification at the meter change saying: "quarter equals dotted quarter"
Guitar Pro disagrees with the above. Which is correct?
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#2
08-28-2013, 11:19 AM
 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006
12/8, 6/8, 4/4

Sounds like you're having the same issues I had with my first drum machine. When set to 4/4 or 2/4, the machine could only divide the beats up evenly. In order to produce triplets, I resorted to 6/8 or 12/8.

So instead of counting 1--2--3--4, I counted 1,2,3--2,2,3--3,2,3-----4,2,3 or 1 trip let, 2 trip let, 3 trip let, 4 trip let.

The quarter note remains at a constant meter.
I've played big band charts that switch between 4/4, 3/4, and 5/4, etc where the meter is constant (quarter note is the time reference).

Hope this helps
#3
08-28-2013, 11:31 AM
 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2011
I'm not sure if this will come out clear.

You sound like you have a groove with 2 "endings" But your unclear to us what of what the meat of the groove is. That will give a real indication as to how to notate.

You can always notate stuff differently.Thats the nature of written music. What is correct is what ever gives the clearest indication of what it sounds like combined with ease of reading.
Since this is rhythm your big and secondary accents will make it clear where and how to group things.
#4
08-28-2013, 11:35 AM
 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2011

You want a to notate a 4/4 even eighth groove that has the 2 different endings that are triplet based....

Maintain 4/4 and use the little 3 on the grouping frown to show the triplets.

Use a 2/4 to show the change in length.

Make sure your accents match this.

Correct?

Last edited by Zootsuitbass : 08-28-2013 at 12:22 PM.
#5
08-28-2013, 12:12 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Philadelphia, PA
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jblmusic1994 This is basically a bar of 4/4 but minus 2 8th note triplets. (I know it sounds nonsensical, but it surprisingly stable)
Wouldn't this simply be a bar of 2/4?
#6
08-28-2013, 12:42 PM
 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Canada
The problem is :

let say one beat = 100bpm and in one beat you have 2 8th in a 9/8 you have 3 8th in one beat ... so in a sense an 8th will be faster in a 9/8 versus a 4/4 at the same speed.

So if you want the pulse to be binary ... use x/4 if the pulse is in 3, then use x/8

from what I understand of your question ... you have in the end 12 8th notes in your groove. you can split them into a 6/4, a 4/4 + 2/4, or 4/4 + 6/8
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#7
08-28-2013, 12:43 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jblmusic1994 The basic idea is a groove in 4/4 with two 8th note triplets leading back into beat one. Then, the same groove but with 4 eighth note triplets leading bak into beat one, but starting at the same time as the 2 triplets. This is basically a bar of 4/4 but minus 2 8th note triplets. (I know it sounds nonsensical, but it surprisingly stable)
Can you show it on the note sheet?

Last edited by Whousedtoplay : 10-21-2013 at 07:46 AM.
#8
08-28-2013, 12:55 PM
 Dr. Jim Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Denton TX, Kailua HI, New York
10/8 would work, but a bar of 6/8 followed by a bar 4/8 would probably be easier to read. It is a common meter in middle eastern music (Samai).
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#9
08-28-2013, 12:57 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Philadelphia, PA
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jim Carr 10/8 would work, but a bar of 6/8 followed by a bar 4/8 would probably be easier to read.
As I read the original post, he is dropping two eighth note triplets from one 4/4 bar. In 12/8 time, that would be dropping six eighth notes, not two.
#10
08-28-2013, 01:17 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Febs As I read the original post, he is dropping two eighth note triplets from one 4/4 bar. In 12/8 time, that would be dropping six eighth notes, not two.
"Oh, shoot! I'd should have learned music theory instead of participating in the discussion, "Is music theory important?"
#11
08-28-2013, 02:03 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Jackson, Ohio
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Febs Wouldn't this simply be a bar of 2/4?
No. It would be 2/4 plus 1 and 1/3 triplets.
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#12
08-28-2013, 02:04 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Jackson, Ohio
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Zootsuitbass I'm not sure if this will come out clear. You sound like you have a groove with 2 "endings" But your unclear to us what of what the meat of the groove is. That will give a real indication as to how to notate. You can always notate stuff differently.Thats the nature of written music. What is correct is what ever gives the clearest indication of what it sounds like combined with ease of reading. Since this is rhythm your big and secondary accents will make it clear where and how to group things.
I could notate it easily by using specific writing and I could explain it in person easily. I just needed to know if was a more technical solution, so I can explain via guitar pro to my bandmates.
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#13
08-28-2013, 02:06 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Jackson, Ohio
Quote:
 Originally Posted by john m Sounds like you're having the same issues I had with my first drum machine. When set to 4/4 or 2/4, the machine could only divide the beats up evenly. In order to produce triplets, I resorted to 6/8 or 12/8. So instead of counting 1--2--3--4, I counted 1,2,3--2,2,3--3,2,3-----4,2,3 or 1 trip let, 2 trip let, 3 trip let, 4 trip let. The quarter note remains at a constant meter. I've played big band charts that switch between 4/4, 3/4, and 5/4, etc where the meter is constant (quarter note is the time reference). Hope this helps
It is definitely understandable and expected that meters with the same beat value would remain. The question was referring to changes in the beat value.

Would the 8ths remain the same even though the beat is changing? Or would the beat remain the same even though the subdivision is changing?
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#14
08-28-2013, 02:09 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Jackson, Ohio

This is a more simple, visual representation of the concept. How do I notate the extra triplet note? It occurs on beat three, and beat one occurs the same time the next triplet would have sounded, if it were present.
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#15
08-28-2013, 02:10 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Jackson, Ohio
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Whousedtoplay Can you show it on the note sheet?
What exactly do you mean? I've provided a visual representation of my idea.
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#16
08-28-2013, 02:15 PM
 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Long Island, NY
they're both 4 beat measures. in 4/4 the beat gets divided in haves- your 8th notes counted 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

in 12/8 your 8th notes are 1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a, the same as triplets in 4/4 really.
#17
08-28-2013, 02:21 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Jackson, Ohio
Quote:
 Originally Posted by groooooove they're both 4 beat measures. in 4/4 the beat gets divided in haves- your 8th notes counted 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + in 12/8 your 8th notes are 1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a, the same as triplets in 4/4 really.
That's what I was thinking, but when I made a measure of 12/8 have duple 2=3, it wasn't the same as 4/4 8th notes. And when I changed 4/4 to all triplets, it didn't sound the same as 12/8 using all 8th notes. I am guessing my computer program has a standard for all 8th notes at a certain speed.
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#18
08-28-2013, 02:48 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Philadelphia, PA
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jblmusic1994 Attachment 358917 This is a more simple, visual representation of the concept. How do I notate the extra triplet note? It occurs on beat three, and beat one occurs the same time the next triplet would have sounded, if it were present.
In that case, I think that there are a number of different ways that you could write it. I've attached a couple of examples. I would be more inclined to go with #1 or #2 rather than #3 just to keep the meter consistent.

You are correct that notating in 12/8 with the beat being a dotted quarter, and notating in 4/4 with the beat being a quarter note, should result in the same playback.
Attached Thumbnails

#19
08-28-2013, 02:53 PM
 Registered User Join Date: May 2013
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Febs In that case, I think that there are a number of different ways that you could write it. I've attached a couple of examples. I would be more inclined to go with #1 or #2 rather than #3 just to keep the meter consistent. You are correct that notating in 12/8 with the beat being a dotted quarter, and notating in 4/4 with the beat being a quarter note, should result in the same playback.
In your 12/8 example, it should be 5/4.
Am I wrong?
Or those are not triplets?
If no, I'd say it's an unusual way to write the regular 8th's.

Last edited by Whousedtoplay : 08-28-2013 at 02:59 PM.
#20
08-28-2013, 02:55 PM
 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2011
Sure if it's as simply rhythmically as 1/4s on those first two beats. I thought you wanted strait eighths for those first 2 beats.

If the accent of "3" is really strong. Number 2 for sure.

Even just for ease of reading,number 2.

I suspect number 1 is most accurate.

I don't like how the Last 1/8 in Number 3 doesn't have a triplet sign.

Last edited by Zootsuitbass : 08-28-2013 at 03:01 PM.

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