2-5-1 Problem

[J. Crawford]

Okay guys, I can hold my own when it comes to playing. I get compliments and the whole deal, but my theory is still a major problem. I am currently taking lessons, and thinks are clicking, but in my current band (which I worked my butt off to earn a spot) the guitarist is trained in jazz.

He wants me to diddle around with a 2-5-1 bass line, and Im dunb founded. That means the 2, 5, and 1 of a note within the position/scale, but I am just lost.

Someone explain it?

[aus_bass]

It's pretty easy.......

The "1" is the root of the scale. Say you want to play a 2, 5,1 pattern in A.....

A = 1
B = 2
E = 5

[J. Crawford]

See, I knew that.

So, this works for any note? I mean, there isnt a distinct note made just for 2-5-1?

Okay, thanks for the answer. Thats exaclty what I thought.

[J. Crawford]

Why is E the 5? Shouldnt D be the 5th?

[Johnny StingRay]

A 2-5-1 is the most used chord progression in jazz. It means the ii7-V7-I of what ever tonal center you are playing in. If the tonal center is the key of Bb major the ii7-V7-I would be a chord progession of Cm7 to F7 resolving to Bbmaj7. I say "tonal center" because in many jazz standards you could play the ii7-V7-I of the key of Bb major then the song will shift to Eb major and the ii7-V7-I would then be Fm7-Bb7 resolving to Ebmaj7. So it shifts around depending on the song. It relates to the cycle of fifths.
Also, many times you can play just the ii7 for the ii7 and the V7 since they are substitutes for each other. There are other substitutes, for example what is called a "flat five", but just fool around with the ii7-V7-I for now.

[Jim Campbell]

its a progression not a note

iiminor7 in C maj would be dmin7

V7 G7

I Cmajor(7)

[J. Crawford]

ii7-V7-I ?

[Johnny StingRay]

In any major key (C major will be our example), if you build triad chords starting at each of the notes in the scale you will have this:
C major notes CEG labeled I capital means major first note of C major scale
D minor notes DFA lableled ii lower case means minor seconde note C scale
E minor notes EGB labeled iii third note of the C major scale
F major notes FAC labeled IV fourth note of the C major scale
G major notes GBD labeled V fifth note of the C major scale
A minor notes ACE labeled vi sixth note of the C major scale
B diminished notes BDF labeled viidim seventh note of the C major scale

If a 7 is after the symbol, then add the seventh of the chord..,ii7 would be a DFAC etc.

[butchblack]

Originally Posted by Jordasch

Why is E the 5? Shouldnt D be the 5th?

No E is the 5th if A is 1st. Bass is a symmetrical instrument. If you play A on the 5th fret on the E string your 4th would be D on the 5th fret E would be the 5th on the 7th fret on the D string. The 2 5 1 progression is a common turnaround in jazz swing blues

[Johnny StingRay]

ii7-V7-I chords of each major key
Key of C major
ii7 is Dm7
V7 is G7
I is C major
Key of F major
ii7 is Gm7
V7 is C7
I is F major
Key of Bb major
ii7 is Cm7
V7 is F7
I is Bb major
Key of Eb major
ii7 is Fm7
V7 is Bb7
I is Eb major
Key of Ab major
ii7 is Bbm7
V7 is Eb7
I is Ab major
Key of Db major
ii7 is Ebm7
V7 is Ab7
I is Db major
Key of Gb or F# major
ii7 is Abm7 G#m7
V7 is Db7 C#7
I is Gb major F# major
Key of B major
ii7 is C#m7
V7 is F#7
I is B major
Key of E major
ii7 is F#m7
V7 is B7
I is E major
Key of A major
ii7 is Bm7
V7 is E7
I is A major
Key of D major
ii7 is Em7
V7 is A7
I is D major
Key of G major
ii7 is Am7
V7 is D7
I is G major
and back to C major

[Johnny StingRay]

Sorry it is hard to read.............I did try to indent.

[J. Crawford]

My head just exploded.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Jordasch

My head just exploded.

roman numerals are used to identify the chord,lower case is used to signify a minor,upper case a major...ie V7 fifth scale degree dominant 7

vi mi7 sixth scale degree minor 7

ii mi 7 second scale degree minor 7

[JTE]

You're making this much to difficult. Start with the major scale, and I'll use C to keep it simple...

C D E F G A B C. OK, first, you should understand how to build a major scale in any key (NOT JUST PLAY IT, you gotta know what notes are in it, and WHY- why it's an F# in the key of G, not Gb for example)...

BTW, don't just look at this stuff. Get a piece of paper and write it out yourself in several different keys....

So, you have your C major scale

C D E F G A B C

Then you write it out again just above that, only starting on the third note (duh- C is 1, D is 2, so E is 3) so you get...

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Repeat, and add another line a third higher...

G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And one more time....

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


Look at the STACKS of notes. Those are the chords that occur naturally in the key of C. Now, analyze those stacks. That's where your basic harmony theory comes in. Don't just take my word for it, but figure out WHY those chords are:

Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5

The first chord is Cmaj7
The second chord is Dmin7
The fifth chord is G7.

Roman numerals are generally used to indicate chords. And lower case is used to show minor chords. So, when you see "ii7 V7 I" they mean the 2nd, 5th, and 1st chords of the key center.

It's the same in any major key. Because the intervals between notes don't change, only the specific notes change. So, in every major key your natural chords are always

One and four are major 7
Two, three, and six are minor 7
Five is a dominant 7
Seven is a minor 7 with a b5 (also called "half-diminished", but it's NOT the same as a plain "diminished" chord)

So, the major scale has these chords in it (also known as the harmonized scale)...

I (major 7)
ii (minor 7)
iii (minor 7)
IV (Major 7)
V (Dominant 7)
vi (minor 7)
vii (minor 7 b5 or half diminished)

Why use ii V I? Because those three chords flow in to each other smoothly, and they define a key center. They have all the notes of the major scale in them. Go back and see that for yourself, don't trust me on this.

That's what your guitarist wants you to practice because it'll help you learn a key progression of jazz compositions. You'll learn what they sound like so you'll be able to hear them coming, and know what to play on them. It's like learning the I IV V for blues/rock stuff, and the I vi IV V for pop stuff. And if you think you don't know what "I IV V" and "I vi IV V" mean, then go through this whole post again. Repeat until you do get it.

jte

[Dogbertday]

the roman numerals describe a chord starting on a specific scale degree... ie. ii is the roman numeral for 2. In the key of C major the second scale degree is D. chords are generally built in 3rds so that means that you skip every other note in the scale going up. so you end up with an arpeggio that contains D F A C (in jazz you can almost always assume that there's 4 notes in the arpeggio even when it's not labeled)

JTE's post said it all

Originally Posted by Jordasch

Okay guys, I can hold my own when it comes to playing. I get compliments and the whole deal, but my theory is still a major problem. I am currently taking lessons, and thinks are clicking, but in my current band (which I worked my butt off to earn a spot) the guitarist is trained in jazz.

He wants me to diddle around with a 2-5-1 bass line, and Im dunb founded. That means the 2, 5, and 1 of a note within the position/scale, but I am just lost.

Someone explain it?

there are major 251s and minor 251s too. worth looking at them both in practicing

[Johnny StingRay]

This wouldn't be a problem if teachers taught working with chords/arpeggios BEFORE they have their students learn modes. Any bass player should be able to knock off a ii7-V7-I riff without even thinking about it. That is extremely easy when taught via the chordal approach. Teach the modes AFTER they learn their arpeggios then they can connect the chordal notes with passing notes, lead in notes, extensions, etc. from the modes. Learn the alphabet before trying to write a novel.

I wish Jordasch good luck. JTE is right. He is wise and knowledgable.