2 minor/major

[bassinplace]

Hi,

Just in the process of teaching myself theory and there's something I was wondering about. What is the difference between a 2 minor and a 2 major? I mean, in Ionian and Aeolian they are both a whole step. Maybe the 2 minor is referring to the Phrygian and Locrian modes? I dunno.

[Violen]

ok, could we have a context?

My instinctive answer is it means a ii Minor, or a II major.

(a quick background.)

Chords in roman Numerals, in the key of C:

C d e F G a b C
I ii iii IV V vi vii I

So the way this works, as im assuming you know, is that the chords are the following:

C, Major
d, minor. (Hence the lower case d, and the fact the roman numeral is lower case.)
e. minor . (same reason)
F, Major (Just like C, its Caps and its IV, not iv)
G, Dominant(Major) (A Major chord with a minor seventh, a "natural" seventh)
a. minor (Just like d and e)
b. diminished (minor with a lowered fifth.)

if i heard someone say a "2 minor" mentally i would assume a "ii" minor. So it would be dorian in a major key. If i heard a "ii" major id assume a major chord.

Your traditional Minor Scale (From the classical point of view)
Remember, this is built on the sixth scale degree of its relative major. Ie: C major is the same as A Natural Minor (Aeolian)

c. i
d. ii (diminished)
Eb. III Major
f iv minor
G V (the V chord is always dominant. This is the first substitution you learn in music school.)
Ab VI (Major, built on the flattened sixth scale degree.)
Bb VII (Dominant in its natural positon, but scratch this out for)
b vii (diminished, built on the substituted dominant chord. Very very popular in jazz and classical. Less common in "rock")

So while i was typing this i realized that a "2" Major would refer to your second form of substitution, a "Major" chord replacing the second chord in a scale. (Commonly found in a ii-V-I.)

This is found in Jazz and Classcial Music. It is a substitution for a Dominant chord moving towards -> V. At this point i guarantee you that V is played with its dominant voicing (The major third and the flat seventh.)

My concern is your getting vocal Shorthand. Thats why id like a clarification. I hope this information has helped, and you should have some more questions.

The reason i typed all that out is for anyone else whos playing the home version. (People who may want some information into what we are talking about.)

Like i said, please ask more questions so we can help you


(If i got anything wrong gang, please point it out so i can edit.)

[bassinplace]

I appreciate the thoroughness of your answer. It's getting late, so tomorrow I will study it in detail.

I guess what I'm asking in it's simplest terms is a ii minor is a half step, correct? And a II Major is a whole step, also correct?

Well, in a minor scale (Aeolian) the ii is a whole step. In a major scale (Ionian) the II is also a whole step. So why is the second not a perfect interval? The only reason I can see is the Phrygian and Locrian modes which seem to be minor scales in which the ii is a half step.

I can see how the II Major is a whole step, but not how the ii minor is a half step. What am I missing? Hopefully I'm explaining this in a way that makes sense.

Thanks again for the info you've provided so far.

[Violen]

Without getting out my Leitz or Piston here is the short answer:

If you are talking about intervals it is all referenced from the major scale.

Remember its Whole, Whole, Half, Whole Whole WHole Half.

So back to C Major

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

C>D Is a whole step. This is the degree of a second in a major scale. THerefore, its a major second. If it were C>Db it would be a minor second. An Augmented Second would be C>D#.

The only perfect intervals are the Unison (Root), The Fourth, Fifth, and Octave.
I cant remember why the system is the way it is, other than i believe its the idea that a fourth can be flatted, or sharped and still not interfere with the function of another note, the same with a fifth.

As per example: An augmented second is the same as a minor third.

If you have a "Natural (See: Major)" Third, then the fourth is a whole step away, and can be flatted without interference. the fourth can also be sharped without interferance to the fifth.

Oh yes! Also, there are major, and minor seconds, thirds, and sixths. These intervals change with your major and minor scales. In most cases, perfect intervals dont move. i realize there are exceptions to every rule but consider this:

There are really only two scales, the major and the minor. All other scales in our western diatonic harmony can be described based othem. Lydian, is major with a #4. MixoLydian is Major with a flat 7th. Aoelian (Natural Minor) can be used for reference to Dorian(Minor with a major sixth) and phrygian (Minor with a minor second.) the diminished scale is one of these big rule breakers, but it also has its on place in harmony.

When you start learning about 7th chords and extensions, these rules change, but for now, keep them pretty concrete in your studies ok?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by bassinplace

I guess what I'm asking in it's simplest terms is a ii minor is a half step, correct? And a II Major is a whole step, also correct?

Taking a different look may help -- go look at a keyboard - white and black keys.
The minor will be up 3 keys. If you are wanting a major it will be up 4 keys.

R+3+4 is a minor chord.
R+4+3 is a major chord.

D major you have to use a black key to get the "up 4".

I think that may visually show what you are talking about.

Good luck.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Taking a different look may help -- go look at a keyboard - white and black keys.
The minor will be up 3 keys. If you are wanting a major it will be up 4 keys.

R+3+4 is a minor chord.
R+4+3 is a major chord.

D major you have to use a black key to get the "up 4".

I think that may visually show what you are talking about.

Good luck.

Ah! Good idea. Having a keyboard handy would probably help accelerate my understanding quite a bit. Gonna see what I can find. Thanks!

[mambo4]

all Minor intervals are 1/2 step lower than the equivalent Major interval, as it would naturally occur in the major(aka ionian) scale.

A major second is a whole step
A minor second is a half step

It's not "because" of any scale or mode being used.
---
Also, note that except for #4 these responses are off the mark,
assuming you are asking something about harmony.

In theory,a number can mean several things:
an interval (2 notes, the first assume to be a "1")
an degree of a scale
a chord tone or extension
a chord in a given key (usually roman numerals)

anytime you are posting a theory question with a number involved, it is helpful to clarify which of the above you speak of.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by Violen

Your traditional Minor Scale (From the classical point of view)
Remember, this is built on the sixth scale degree of its relative major. Ie: C major is the same as A Natural Minor (Aeolian)

c. i
d. ii (diminished)

Ok, please forgive my edit, but this little snippet illustrates where I'm getting hung up. When you say ii diminished in this context, how is it diminished? It's a whole step, yes? From a to b, yes? And if this scale was started from say the b, then the c would be sharped as this particular interval is always a whole step, yes? It would probably be most prudent of me to leave this concept for now and come back to it later, but for some reason I can't get my mind around it.

Originally Posted by Violen

Without getting out my Leitz or Piston here is the short answer:

If you are talking about intervals it is all referenced from the major scale.

Remember its Whole, Whole, Half, Whole Whole WHole Half.

So back to C Major

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

C>D Is a whole step. This is the degree of a second in a major scale. THerefore, its a major second. If it were C>Db it would be a minor second. An Augmented Second would be C>D#.

Ok, maybe I can see the light a little bit on this example. So, if I'm playing something written in the key of C, and it calls for a Db then that makes it a minor second? It still doesen't jibe with the natural minor scale though. I'm still confused.

Originally Posted by Violen

The only perfect intervals are the Unison (Root), The Fourth, Fifth, and Octave.
I cant remember why the system is the way it is, other than i believe its the idea that a fourth can be flatted, or sharped and still not interfere with the function of another note, the same with a fifth.

As per example: An augmented second is the same as a minor third.

If you have a "Natural (See: Major)" Third, then the fourth is a whole step away, and can be flatted without interference. the fourth can also be sharped without interferance to the fifth.

I'm not clear here. Are you saying a Major 4th is a whole step away from a Major 3rd? I thought it was a half step. Again, confused.

Originally Posted by Violen

Oh yes! Also, there are major, and minor seconds, thirds, and sixths. These intervals change with your major and minor scales. In most cases, perfect intervals dont move. i realize there are exceptions to every rule but consider this:

There are really only two scales, the major and the minor. All other scales in our western diatonic harmony can be described based othem. Lydian, is major with a #4. MixoLydian is Major with a flat 7th. Aoelian (Natural Minor) can be used for reference to Dorian(Minor with a major sixth) and phrygian (Minor with a minor second.) the diminished scale is one of these big rule breakers, but it also has its on place in harmony.

When you start learning about 7th chords and extensions, these rules change, but for now, keep them pretty concrete in your studies ok?

Thank you. I really do appreciate your help.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by bassinplace

Hi,

Just in the process of teaching myself theory and there's something I was wondering about. What is the difference between a 2 minor and a 2 major? I mean, in Ionian and Aeolian they are both a whole step. Maybe the 2 minor is referring to the Phrygian and Locrian modes? I dunno.

Correct!

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by mambo4

all Minor intervals are 1/2 step lower than the equivalent Major interval, as it would naturally occur in the major(aka ionian) scale.

A major second is a whole step
A minor second is a half step

It's not "because" of any scale or mode being used.
---
Also, note that except for #4 these responses are off the mark,
assuming you are asking something about harmony.

In theory,a number can mean several things:
an interval (2 notes, the first assume to be a "1")
an degree of a scale
a chord tone or extension
a chord in a given key (usually roman numerals)

anytime you are posting a theory question with a number involved, it is helpful to clarify which of the above you speak of.

Thank you. That helps a bit. I guess I just don't have the knowledge yet to present my question clearly enough. Everything is based on the intervals of the minor and Major scales though, isn't it? When I write out the the steps I think I can see how a minor second works:

Major Scale is: WWHWWWH
minor scale is: whwwhww

When looked at this way on paper the second interval is indeed a half step. But when played on a fretboard, the first "h" in the minor scale formula written above is actually the third note played. That's where I get hung up.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Violen

The only perfect intervals are the Unison (Root), The Fourth, Fifth, and Octave.
I cant remember why the system is the way it is, other than i believe its the idea that a fourth can be flatted, or sharped and still not interfere with the function of another note, the same with a fifth.

" Perfect/augmented/diminished " versus "major/minor" isn't at all about notes "interfering" with other scale tones.

Originally Posted by Violen

If you have a "Natural (See: Major)" Third, then the fourth is a whole step away

that's just a mistake. the4th is 1/2 step away form a major third, as bassinplace noted.
-------------------------

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Correct!

Yeah?! That would be awesome!

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by mambo4

" Perfect/augmented/diminished " versus "major/minor" isn't at all about notes "interfering" with other scale tones.



that's just a mistake. the4th is 1/2 step away form a major third, as bassinplace noted.
-------------------------

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The way I think of it is a perfect interval is named as such because it's always the same distance away from the root irregardless of the scale it's being used in. It always sits "perfectly" in place.

[mambo4]

The 5th and the 4th do In fact change in some modes and scales...
There was another recent thread about this specific issue.

The usual explanation about why some intervals are labeled
"Perfect/augmented/diminished " versus "major/minor"
is to use the major versus minor scale positions:
Perfect intervals are the same in both Major and minor scales

Inevitably, this leads to the question : what about the 2nd?
It's the same in both, so why is it not also "Perfect/augmented/diminished "?

the truth is that this usual explanation falls short, and is not technically correct.
as i said before it is not "because" of any scale or mode

according to wikipedia, the real reason is that A Major interval inverts to become a Minor interval (a Major 3rd inverts to a Minor 6th, for example)
while a Perfect interval inverts to another perfect interval ( a 5th becomes a 4th).

[PhiDeck]

Originally Posted by bassinplace

Ah! Good idea. Having a keyboard handy would probably help accelerate my understanding quite a bit.

Or, the contrary could be true. Keyboard instruments, including accordion and melodica, have the black/white keys arrangement in order to fit an octave in the span of one hand. Your bass, as well as guitar, violin, etc., make no such distinction between the piano's white and black notes.

Many people seem to get seriously hung up on the piano's black/white schema, to the point that it gets in the way of understanding the underlying principles, which are color agnostic and completely transposable.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by PhiDeck

Or, the contrary could be true. Keyboard instruments, including accordion and melodica, have the black/white keys arrangement in order to fit an octave in the span of one hand. Your bass, as well as guitar, violin, etc., make no such distinction between the piano's white and black notes.

Many people seem to get seriously hung up on the piano's black/white schema, to the point that it gets in the way of understanding the underlying principles, which are color agnostic and completely transposable.

In terms of context, I can see what you're saying, but the keyboard suggestion reminded me of an interview I saw once with Dizzy Gillespie where he was talking about Miles Davis asking him about what he meant when he played a particular note. He said his answer to Miles was that he needed to learn the keyboard, so that he could "see the whole spectrum". If Mr. Gillespie recommends this, I think it must have some credence.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by mambo4

The 5th and the 4th do In fact change in some modes and scales...
There was another recent thread about this specific issue.

The usual explanation about why some intervals are labeled
"Perfect/augmented/diminished " versus "major/minor"
is to use the major versus minor scale positions:
Perfect intervals are the same in both Major and minor scales

Inevitably, this leads to the question : what about the 2nd?
It's the same in both, so why is it not also "Perfect/augmented/diminished "?

the truth is that this usual explanation falls short, and is not technically correct.
as i said before it is not "because" of any scale or mode

according to wikipedia, the real reason is that A Major interval inverts to become a Minor interval (a Major 3rd inverts to a Minor 6th, for example)
while a Perfect interval inverts to another perfect interval ( a 5th becomes a 4th).

Ah! Thanks! Now we're getting to the meat and potatoes! Good ol' Wikipedia!

[Beginner Bass]

That is because the Aeloian scale has a major 2nd. A minor 2nd is actually a semitone, not a whole tone.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by Beginner Bass

That is because the Aeloian scale has a major 2nd. A minor 2nd is actually a semitone, not a whole tone.

Ah, yes and this brings me back to my original postulation, that in terms of scales/modes the ii minor is only utilized in the phrygian/locrian modes. I think I was onto something there...

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by mambo4

all Minor intervals are 1/2 step lower than the equivalent Major interval, as it would naturally occur in the major(aka ionian) scale.

A major second is a whole step
A minor second is a half step

It's not "because" of any scale or mode being used.
---

Originally Posted by Beginner Bass

That is because the Aeloian scale has a major 2nd.

I think these two answers combined pretty much sum up the answer I was looking for. The way I'm seeing it is intervals do all base themselves on the Ionian, and the natural minor contains a II Major. A ii minor occurs in the case of accidentals/enharmonics. I need to iron that out a little to make sure I have it really clear, but I think I'm getting the gist of it. I like this explanation, I think it will work for me until/unless a better one comes along. Thanks, all.