5, 7, 11, etc. - simple or compound?

[MusicBokonon]

I was in theory today, learning about the difference between simple and compound (i.e. I was sleeping), but I managed to stay awake long enough to ask if 5/4, 7/4, or other primes were simple or compound. My professor told me something along the lines of "I'll tell you later, that's for a later lesson," or something like that. So can anyone explain to me what they are and how it works?

[Pacman]

There are three types of meter - simple, compound and complex. Complex is defined as having elements of both simple and compound.

[PJSShearer]

Simple = 2/4, 3/4 4/4
Compund = 3/8, 6/8, 9/8 + 12/8 (the beat is split into 3s - think Diddly, Diddly, Diddly, rather than 2 - Dumdum, Dumdum, Dumdum!!)
Complex - think Dave Brubeck - 5/4 (3+2), 7/4 (2+2+3) etc.

check out:

http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdiction...terbasics.html

[MusicBokonon]

For example, 7/4 can be thought of as 3+4, 5+2, or 6+1, correct? So how do I know how to distinguish one from the other i.e. when it's 3+4 and when it's 5+2?

[rpsands]

How it's divided up always seemed more of a feel thing to me. Usually you can tell whether something's meant to be 5/2 or 4/3 or 2/2/3.

Best example of a 7/4 I can think of is Outshined by Soundgarden. Pretty clearly a 2/2/3 (or 4/3 possibly but way easier to think of in your head as 2/2/3 I think). You can feel the strong downbeat on the beginning of the 3 beat set.

Not sure it's necessary to distinguish technically but I guess it could be I'd think the music would be notated as 2/4 2/4 3/4 if they intended it to be read that way.

[Jedi Of Syrinx]

I know 'complex' as 'odd' time... Stuff like 5/4 and 7/8... I have been taught that anything that doesn't fit into simple and compound (i.e. not divisible by two or three) falls into odd time.. I good example of odd time would be Money by Pink Floyd, that's a nice 7/8 riff.

Actual division can depend on feel (e.g. the difference between 3/4 and 6/8? Mathematically none, but a bar of 6/8 feels longer than 3/4), but will also depend on how it is notated on the stave, for the sake of tidiness.

To illustrate this, you could write a calypso groove that lasts for 17 bars in 2/4 time, and an 18th bar in 4/4 time, or you could have 9 bars of 4/4 and 1 bar of 2/4 (both result in 38 beats), which would be tidier, but may not necessarily convey the 2/4 feel of the piece. It's all subjective, really.

Also, actually counting odd time signatures (3+4, 5+2 or 6+1) is merely a means of counting the correct number of beats, although what numbers you use will inevitably mean that you accent different beats, so if you were to learn a piee in an odd time, it would probably be necessary to be really careful to listen to subtle accents on particular beats to get a hint on how it is counted... If any of this makes sense to you?

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Jedi Of Syrinx

I know 'complex' as 'odd' time... Stuff like 5/4 and 7/8... I have been taught that anything that doesn't fit into simple and compound (i.e. not divisible by two or three) falls into odd time.. I good example of odd time would be Money by Pink Floyd, that's a nice 7/8 riff.

You could write it in 7/8, but given the pulse of the tune, I'd call it 7/4. Semantics, I know.

Actual division can depend on feel (e.g. the difference between 3/4 and 6/8? Mathematically none, but a bar of 6/8 feels longer than 3/4), but will also depend on how it is notated on the stave, for the sake of tidiness.

Actually, 3/4 and 6/8 show the difference between simple and compound time. 3/4 is also called simple triple, you'd count it (and the divisions of beats) "1 and 2 and 3 and", whereas 6/8 is compound duple time, which would be counted "1 and ah 2 and ah". Put another way, the unit of beat is a quarter note in 3/4 time, but a dotted quarter note in 6/8.

Also, actually counting odd time signatures (3+4, 5+2 or 6+1) is merely a means of counting the correct number of beats, although what numbers you use will inevitably mean that you accent different beats, so if you were to learn a piee in an odd time, it would probably be necessary to be really careful to listen to subtle accents on particular beats to get a hint on how it is counted... If any of this makes sense to you?

Again, not really. Any time signature is a representation of the pulse of a piece of music. It's more than just getting the correct numbers on the paper.

[Pannoowau]

thanks for this equation.... it working good...


__________________
Compound Interest Formula

[HaVIC5]

You could write it in 7/8, but given the pulse of the tune, I'd call it 7/4. Semantics, I know.

This is something I've had lengthy discussions with other musicians, mainly composers, in the past. It depends on what kind of music you're writing on whether or not it matters what you call it (7/8 or 7/4...or 7/2 for that matter). If you're writing classical (ie, western art) music, you can notate it however you feel gets the point across to the performer the easiest. Usually, if it's brisker, you'd write it as 7/8, but there's no real rule. With jazz/pop/rock/anything that has a drummer, however, there isn't that leniency. Meters take on a whole new meaning when there is a groove behind it, and drummers certainly don't want to be looking at a chart that says 7/16 when it's clearly in 7/8.

So in the case of Money, there really is no question. You'd notate it at 7/4 (complex 3+4)

[dalconthenovice]

i try not to overthink it too much

i mean does it really matter hwo you group it up? yeah i guess sometimes but i've never had too i've always just gotten the pulse and the feel of a time signature and myh playing just goes along naturally regardless of time signature

[sloasdaylight]

Regarding complex vs simple vs compound meters, it helps to know like others have said here what each signature usually means. 6/8 for example is usually notated when the composer wants to give a triplet feel by splitting the two beats of a measure up in thirds, which results in a kind of 3 against 2 feel almost, which is why a measure of 3/4 with 6 eighth notes, and a measure of 6/8 with 6 eighth notes will almost always be accented differently, with the accents coming on the 1st, 3rd, and 5th of 3/4, and the 1st and 4th of 6/8.
Complex meters though are different and really have no set way to divide it up. 7 for example can be divided up in terms of 1+6, 2+5, 3+4, 4+3 2+2+2+1, etc etc.

I personally find myself counting out simple meters, like 4/4 for example in complex ways if a particular riff exists over 2 or more bars. I don't know why, but when I hear a snare falling on the 3rd beat of a 4 beat measure during a verse or chorus or w/e, so long as it repeats that pattern a few times, I tend to count it out 3+3+2 :-/

[hbarcat]

Just to add a specific example of how complex time can be counted different ways.

Suppose you had a song in 11/8. Without actually listening to the song and hearing where the accents occur or where the notes fall it's equally likely to be

4 + 4 + 3
or
3 + 3 + 3 + 2
or possibly
2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 3
or other combinations of 2's 3's and 4's


The song Right In Two by Tool is in 11/4 (or 11/8 ) and we know it's 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 because the chords change with each measure even if the drums are less noticeably following the pattern.

[CoffeeJanitor]

Examples of complex time as shown by the Flecktones.

11/8 (not sure how it's counted though)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hk6SbLdpTE

9/8, (counted 2 2 3 2 I believe)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nib5jb_QvOY

Skip to about 50 seconds in.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Originally Posted by Jedi Of Syrinx

I know 'complex' as 'odd' time... Stuff like 5/4 and 7/8... I have been taught that anything that doesn't fit into simple and compound (i.e. not divisible by two or three) falls into odd time.. I good example of odd time would be Money by Pink Floyd, that's a nice 7/8 riff.

Click here to read my take on the subject (several posts). The whole thread is really interesting.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by MusicBokonon

For example, 7/4 can be thought of as 3+4, 5+2, or 6+1, correct? So how do I know how to distinguish one from the other i.e. when it's 3+4 and when it's 5+2?

By listening to it. Discerning subdivisions is much like discerning time signatures themselves. You have to listen to the subtle accents within the measure to determine it.

That said, my general thoughts on the matter is that in contemporary music, you won't get subdivisions like 6+1, or at least you won't feel them that way because of the influence of the drums and the backbeat. In the Rite of Spring, for example, there is a 5/4 bar that clearly is meant to be felt as 4+1, but it's difficult to point to any instances in pop/rock/jazz that are like that, although I could be wrong. Most would end up sounding like 2+3, or in the case of the 6+1, 3+4.

[Hollywars]

Simply put, simple is divisible by 2, complex by 3, compound by a mix. For instance, 5 = 3+2, 7 = 3+4, not sure about 9, since it would be 3+3+3 or 3+6, as in 3+2+2+2. I guess it would still have to be compound since it has a 3 in it.