7+9 chords

Originally Posted by onlyclave

That's why you don't usually hear that chord. #11 or omit it entirely in a V13.

yeah i heard of this -sharpening the 11th to make it nicer to hear. Okay.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by afromoose

Okay, so let me get this straight, are you saying it's wrong to play the hindu scale over a V7+9 chord because it has a major second.

It is not the best choice. The altered scale is.
But in a movement like G+7(#9) to C min,if you play G-G-A-B-C at a medium to fast tempo you might get by with it,

Sly

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by afromoose

Okay fine, maybe technically there isn't such a thing as a two octave scale.

You bet there is.

Originally Posted by afromoose

They have them in Indian music I think, they tune the sitar sometimes so there are different notes in the upper register than in the lower.

Example?

Originally Posted by afromoose

Certainly they have ragas where on the ascending branch you have to play a major seventh, then descending, a minor.

Example?


You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases. You can specify that you want a 2nd and not a 9th in the chord but this is a rare case. It is generally assumed that you want the 9th only, and in chord/scale relationships the 2nd degree of the scale is more often then not treated as a 9.

Another reason for this is that if you had say a nat. 2 and a #9, you'd have a) excessive chromaticism and b) a minor 9th interval. Just one example of how chord tones can not get along.

To answer your question, in an alt chord with a #5, b9, #9 you'll do fine with the altered scale.

As a side note, I'd like to see where the term "Hindu scale" is used. I've never seen it used in any academic setting or text.

Originally Posted by EADG mx

You bet there is.



Example?



Example?


You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases. You can specify that you want a 2nd and not a 9th in the chord but this is a rare case. It is generally assumed that you want the 9th only, and in chord/scale relationships the 2nd degree of the scale is more often then not treated as a 9.

Another reason for this is that if you had say a nat. 2 and a #9, you'd have a) excessive chromaticism and b) a minor 9th interval. Just one example of how chord tones can not get along.

To answer your question, in an alt chord with a #5, b9, #9 you'll do fine with the altered scale.

As a side note, I'd like to see where the term "Hindu scale" is used. I've never seen it used in any academic setting or text.

Oh Man,

The Hindu scale is used in aebersold, brother, as I said originally. I've also called it the major minor scale, and the mixolydian flat 6. You give me one academic text on jazz that's consistent with every other academic text, and I'll give you a delicious meal from a UK service station.

As there's so much confusion over what jazz theory seems to be - now you're saying there IS a two octave scale right? Maybe it's best I leave out getting into a discussion of Indian music. I know these ragas exist because my friend plays sitar (properly) and he told me, - I have a book downstairs as a reference but, I'd rather not get into a semantic argument over that one too!!!

Now, with the two-octave scale thing. I don't know if you've followed the thread, but I was suggesting that there might be scales where the second octave was different to the first. If you have an example of this "(You bet there is!)" then I'd be pleased to know about it. Genuinely pleased. If you mean simply that you can play a scale over two octaves, it seems a bit futile to point this out, but I was already aware of that! I've been playing two octave scales in that way for about the last 21 years.

"You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases."

Okay, on this point I do disagree - a 2nd is different to a ninth, when you're talking about the very low register. Chord tones are added from the root upward. If you read for example 20th Century Harmony by Persicetti, it puts across the notion that in the lower register, intervals have a different significance to that which they have in the higher register.

For an example try this - construct quintile harmony from C.

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G#

Now, if you play the C# and G# at the correct register (which would be just over three octave above), then they harmonise with the c in the bass. You can play any in that sequence at the correct register and they'll harmonize.

However, if you play C, G, C# and G# in the same register, they will be extremely dissonant.

By your logic, though, they ought not to harmonize as they do using quintile harmony, because C# is a semitone from C which makes either a minor second or a minor 9.

So point was, a major second is a different interval to a major ninth - the distance in pitch is significant, so it could be feasible that it be treated differently in the bass. I was just trying to raise a possibility.

Here's a link to where I put up a post about the 5th melodic minor mode (hindu scale) being used over autumn leaves and someone said it was correct.

Jazz standards with Melodic Minor harmony built in...

it's post #6

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by afromoose

"You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases."

Okay, on this point I do disagree - a 2nd is different to a ninth, when you're talking about the very low register. Chord tones are added from the root upward. If you read for example 20th Century Harmony by Persicetti, it puts across the notion that in the lower register, intervals have a different significance to that which they have in the higher register.

I really think that's an offshoot of lower interval limits and related matter than of chord tones and function.

So point was, a major second is a different interval to a major ninth - the distance in pitch is significant, so it could be feasible that it be treated differently in the bass. I was just trying to raise a possibility.

Well, that's true - a major second and major 9th are different intervals. They are not, however different chord tones. They are not treated differently by chording instruments, and should not be thought of differently in this type of music. Remember, this whole discussion started with you asking questions relating to a specific type of music. You're now arguing with people who know this music inside and out.

Do you want to learn, or debate?

Originally Posted by Pacman

I really think that's an offshoot of lower interval limits and related matter than of chord tones and function.



Well, that's true - a major second and major 9th are different intervals. They are not, however different chord tones. They are not treated differently by chording instruments, and should not be thought of differently in this type of music. Remember, this whole discussion started with you asking questions relating to a specific type of music. You're now arguing with people who know this music inside and out.

Do you want to learn, or debate?

Hey, I'm here to learn - I just like to tussle with something if it doesn't make sense to me until it makes sense. The use of this scale over this chord is being endorsed in one place, and argued as theoretically wrong in others. That doesn't make sense. If you're saying it's part of the jazz idiom to avoid this note, why are there others saying it's part of the jazz idiom to include it. Hey I'm all for blind faith if it's in something consistent!

[slybass3000]

Just to clarify my statement for the 2 octaves scale,I refer to OUR Western music system and not Asian or Indian music system. There might be exception to this but I would say they are extremely rare in our music applications.

To come back to the Hindu scale or fifth mode of the melodic minor ,I mentinned that the best use for that scale is when you have a Dominant 9 chord going to its I minor. If you want to play it on a altered chord with a perfect fifth,it will clash if the chord is playing at the same time.
Like I said earlier,when you have an altered 9 and/or 5,the other alteration should be in the scale ,not the natural note.

This is why the altered scale and the diminished HW are so useful on dominant chords. The first one in minor and the other one in major,

Sly

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by afromoose

Hey, I'm here to learn - I just like to tussle with something if it doesn't make sense to me until it makes sense. The use of this scale over this chord is being endorsed in one place, and argued as theoretically wrong in others. That doesn't make sense. If you're saying it's part of the jazz idiom to avoid this note, why are there others saying it's part of the jazz idiom to include it. Hey I'm all for blind faith if it's in something consistent!

And, as I said before, if you're walking (as you framed the question) work primarily from the chord tones. Then, approach those chord tones in strong ways. You've only got 4 notes - outline the harmony the best you can and don't worry about what oddball scales you can use.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by afromoose

The Hindu scale is used in aebersold, brother, as I said originally. I've also called it the major minor scale, and the mixolydian flat 6.

What texts? And I am familiar with Aebersold.

Originally Posted by afromoose

As there's so much confusion over what jazz theory seems to be - now you're saying there IS a two octave scale right?
Maybe it's best I leave out getting into a discussion of Indian music. I know these ragas exist because my friend plays sitar (properly) and he told me, - I have a book downstairs as a reference but, I'd rather not get into a semantic argument over that one too!!!

No need to bring Indian music into it at all. Play an octave scale, now extend it another octave. You have now played a 2-octave scale.

Originally Posted by afromoose

Now, with the two-octave scale thing. I don't know if you've followed the thread, but I was suggesting that there might be scales where the second octave was different to the first. If you have an example of this "(You bet there is!)" then I'd be pleased to know about it. Genuinely pleased. If you mean simply that you can play a scale over two octaves, it seems a bit futile to point this out, but I was already aware of that! I've been playing two octave scales in that way for about the last 21 years.

Not that I know of in Western music.

Originally Posted by afromoose

"You would not treat a 2nd any different from a 9th because they are the same chord tone an octave apart in most cases."

Okay, on this point I do disagree - a 2nd is different to a ninth, when you're talking about the very low register. Chord tones are added from the root upward. If you read for example 20th Century Harmony by Persicetti, it puts across the notion that in the lower register, intervals have a different significance to that which they have in the higher register.

Like Pacman said - as intervals yes, as chord tones no.

Originally Posted by afromoose

For an example try this - construct quintile harmony from C.

C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#, G#

Now, if you play the C# and G# at the correct register (which would be just over three octave above), then they harmonise with the c in the bass. You can play any in that sequence at the correct register and they'll harmonize.

However, if you play C, G, C# and G# in the same register, they will be extremely dissonant.

By your logic, though, they ought not to harmonize as they do using quintile harmony, because C# is a semitone from C which makes either a minor second or a minor 9.

I don't really understand where you're getting this from or what quintal harmony has to do with anything. You could just say that increasing intervallic distance can lessen perceived dissonance, and I'd agree with you.

Originally Posted by afromoose

So point was, a major second is a different interval to a major ninth - the distance in pitch is significant, so it could be feasible that it be treated differently in the bass. I was just trying to raise a possibility.

Yes, but in terms of chords the 2nd will, 90% of the time, equate with the 9th. There are rare cases in which a choice is specifically voiced with the 2nd above the root, such as in the case of an add2 or sus2 chord (which has a strong pull to resolve to the 3rd anyway).

Originally Posted by afromoose

Here's a link to where I put up a post about the 5th melodic minor mode (hindu scale) being used over autumn leaves and someone said it was correct.

Jazz standards with Melodic Minor harmony built in...

it's post #6

Yes you could use the 5th mode of melodic minor in a lot of situations (fwiw I prefer to call it mixolydian b6/b13). If you derive the tertian structures you end up with a Dom7 (9 11 b13) which you can use to outline the 9 and b13 as tensions.

I'm not disagreeing with you. What is the point you are trying to make here?

Originally Posted by Pacman

Do you want to learn, or debate?

Originally Posted by EADG mx

What texts? And I am familiar with Aebersold.

I'm not disagreeing with you. What is the point you are trying to make here?

Oh right so Aebersold isn't a text, okay. You must be referring to scientific literature on this subject or something. "Text" must be a word you get to understand after many. many years of playing jazz. Hey, when I started out, I didn't even know what a text was!! Can you believe it!!. Yeah, I even thought Aebersold was a "text"!! What an idiot... I stand corrected. I suppose Aebersold must seem like the 'Roger Red Hat' of jazz literature to you. How embarrassing.

I was trying to find out scaleS plural that can work over the 7+9 chord, not just one. as it says in the OP.

I was trying to find out why the Major Minor scale works if it's breaking this 'rule' about not having a sharp ninth internal interval.

My idea was that as the sharp ninth is added to the chord as an extension, rather than at the bottom, that this could explain the fact that a 2nd sounds fine in the bass.

It was probably a silly idea.

[Pacman]

Moose, the thing is chords aren't voiced bottom to top. Sure, that's how they're spelled, but a pianist or guitarist will not voice them that way.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by afromoose

Oh right so Aebersold isn't a text, okay. You must be referring to scientific literature on this subject or something. "Text" must be a word you get to understand after many. many years of playing jazz. Hey, when I started out, I didn't even know what a text was!! Can you believe it!!. Yeah, I even thought Aebersold was a "text"!! What an idiot... I stand corrected. I suppose Aebersold must seem like the 'Roger Red Hat' of jazz literature to you. How embarrassing.

I think you need to calm down and stop taking everything as a personal attack. I was just saying that I am familiar with Aebersold and have read his work, but I do not recall seeing this scale name. Genuinely curious.

The same goes for any ragas with differing intervals in the 2nd octave.

Originally Posted by afromoose

I was trying to find out scaleS plural that can work over the 7+9 chord, not just one. as it says in the OP.

You got your answer - Diminished HW and Altered. But you can't get too caught up in this notion of what scales you have to use on each individual chord because improvisation is neither that simple or that convenient.

Originally Posted by afromoose

I was trying to find out why the Major Minor scale works if it's breaking this 'rule' about not having a sharp ninth internal interval.

My idea was that as the sharp ninth is added to the chord as an extension, rather than at the bottom, that this could explain the fact that a 2nd sounds fine in the bass.

Do you mean flat 9?

[slybass3000]

I think he means the natural 9. This is why he is stuck on that Hindu scale. It can be be used when resolving on the I if the walking feels natural even if the bass doesn't play all those alterations like in this:

C+7+(#9)| Fmin

C-D-E-G | F


Sly

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Moose, the thing is chords aren't voiced bottom to top. Sure, that's how they're spelled, but a pianist or guitarist will not voice them that way.

Exactly. As just one example (which I'm sure you're familiar with but not everybody here necessarily will be), many guitarists, when faced with, say, a Bb13 on a chart, might play a 4-note voicing that goes Bb Ab D G, low to high). You could add a high C for the 9th above the A (Bb Ab D G C). In this voicing, the 7th is actually below the 3rd, and the 13th is below the 9th, yet this is accepted as a perfectly legitimate way of playing a 13th chord, and nobody claims that the 3rd is actually a 10th or that the 9th is actually a 16th.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Exactly. As just one example (which I'm sure you're familiar with but not everybody here necessarily will be), many guitarists, when faced with, say, a Bb13 on a chart, might play a 4-note voicing that goes Bb Ab D G, low to high). You could add a high C for the 9th above the A (Bb Ab D G C). In this voicing, the 7th is actually below the 3rd, and the 13th is below the 9th, yet this is accepted as a perfectly legitimate way of playing a 13th chord, and nobody claims that the 3rd is actually a 10th or that the 9th is actually a 16th.

+1

[EADG mx]

And just to add - there's no 'rule' about not having a natural or #9 between intervals.

There is a guideline (not a rule, contrary to proper belief) about avoiding minor 9s, or b9s. This interval is typically considered to be an undesirable dissonance. Not to say you can't use it though because you see it used on dominant and altered chords all of the time.

Generally speaking, the 'acceptable' tensions vary depending on the type of chord, specifically regarding what sort of 3rd and 5th it has, and how it is functioning.