7th chords and keys

[tranceFusion]

So my bass teacher gave me this song to work on, :Freddie the Freeloader" by Miles Davis..

Here are the chords which he gave me:

Bb7 Bb7 Bb7 Bb7
Eb7 Eb7 Bb7 Bb7
F7 Eb7 Ab7 Ab7

Bb7 Bb7 Bb7 Bb7
Eb7 Eb7 Bb7 Bb7
F7 Eb7 Bb7 Bb7

So I am a little confused at this point. The first thing I want to do is see which key the song is in. I understand that a dominant 7th chord is built off the mixylodian mode of the scale. So, I am thinking that I need to figure out which key has a Bb (the first and last chord) in the 5th position. Looks like the key of Eb to me...

The problem is that right off the bat I see an Eb7 in this song. This makes me think that I need to flat the 7th (D) into a Db, but that note is not in this key..

Have I determined the key incorrectly.. are the chord names incomplete.. is there some concept I am missing.. multiple of the above?

Thanks as always!

[mutedeity]

This is where thinking in terms of key is a bit limited, in my opinion. You can see that if you are thinking in terms of key then your "key" is going to "shift". Sure you can think in terms of moving the relative Mixolydian to each chord, Bb Mixolydian for Bb7, Eb Mixolydian for Eb7 for example. On the other hand there are other scales you can consider over dominant7 chords too.

Basically what you have is a I IV V bVII progression based on a 12 bar blues motif where each chord is a dominant7.

[DocBop]

It's basically just a Blues and sometimes Blues will make all the chords dominant. You could go into a bunch of theory and justify it, but sometime just keeping it simple works.

The simple view of dominants is are they resolving or not resolving. If resolving moving in CoF like a V - I. Then use Mixolydian or some altered sound if the style and your taste likes it. If the dominant is NOT resolving then the common scale choice is Lydian b7. A very inside sound. In fact Lydian b7 is a nice default for dominants.

As your playing and ear grow you will probably use throwing chromatics to add some spice. Best thing to do is listen to some Miles Davis and transcribe some of his work. He was one of the greatest soloists. A master of note selection and using space in his solos.

[tranceFusion]

Ok, so technically the key is changing at each chord change?

I don't understand how to pick which scale I can play on, when given a chord progression.. whether I need to explicitly follow the chord name (C7 indicating mixylodian scale) or when I am given a chord named C and ultimately have to determine the scale based on the degree that note appears in the scale.. I am guessing this stems from the fact that it is of no consequence to a rhythm guitar player?

I am ultimately just trying to know what notes aren't going to make a musical fart from a technical perspective. I'll admit that it doesn't happen often when I am actually playing but I think this is because I am trapping myself into this box or safe-zone where I can't explore..

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by DocBop

The simple view of dominants is are they resolving or not resolving. If resolving moving in CoF like a V - I. Then use Mixolydian or some altered sound if the style and your taste likes it. If the dominant is NOT resolving then the common scale choice is Lydian b7. A very inside sound. In fact Lydian b7 is a nice default for dominants.

So in a nutshell you are saying if you want to create a continued uneasy feel, you would sharp the fourth on the mixylodian scale?

Are there specific chord patterns which are considered resolving? What would a I - IV - V be, for instance? (i would describe it as resolving, though I am not sure I grasp this term correctly)

what do you mean by "like a V - I."

Thanks!

[HaVIC5]

Ok, so technically the key is changing at each chord change?

No. It may appear that way if you try and apply the procrustean laws of old classical key theory to a chord progression in blues harmony, but its all in one key - Bb. Major/minor? Well, a little of both, and a little bit not. Let me explain.

A lot of what makes the blues the blues is the tension in the harmony and in the melody. The "blues scale" is a highly bastardized representation of the melodic tendencies of West African vocal music that made it over to the US with the slaves. Slaves would take simple European harmonies, like the major triad on the tonic, dominant and subdominant, and then sing using these "blue" notes up against the harmony. A lot of tension was generated by these tendencies, like the minor 3rd (#9) up against a major triad, and somewhere in the midst of it, it became customary to add the b7 to the major triad. This (I'm just guessing) was probably because the tension created by the harsh melodic/harmonic relationship seemed more acceptable when there was more tension in the harmony.

The point is here that these dominants are all non-functioning, that is they aren't tied to the tonal needs of resolution, and are CHROMATIC (they aren't diatonic sevenths, they're dominant sevenths in every case. This means that there can't be an overreaching key SIGNATURE which allows for all of the accidentals. Does this mean there is no single key? Or is there a different key for every chord? Of course not, all of the chords relate to a single note - Bb. When you're listening to it, when you come to the Eb7, you won't here it as a modulation; that would just be bizzare. You're hearing it as a IV chord with relationship to Bb, even though its not diatonic to Bb major. Remember the original blues musicians (slaves) used European diatonic harmonies, and then spiced them up. Everything in the blues has tonal roots, but its not quite fully tonal harmony in that its full of tasty, dissonant, non-functioning dominants.

What does this have to do with actually PLAYING, however? Saying that its in one key is all fine and dandy, but because there are a lot of chromatic notes, the strategy for actual performance can vary. People will tend to say "if its dominant 7, play mixolydian", so for every chord, you're thinking a different mode. That's cool, but another strategy I like to do is relating everything to the home key that we're in, or Bb, and playing it in a modal sorta way. Take the Eb7 chord, Eb G Bb, Db. If we think of the underlying tonality at Bb mixolydian, the note that is different (chromatic) in this Eb7 from Bb mixolydian is Db instead of D natural, so we get the scale Bb C Db Eb F G Ab Bb. We'll the change the tonality in those two measures to Bb Dorian. Same thing happens for the rest of the chords.

[Deacon_Blues]

Without any intention of being rude, I want to say "shut up and play"... When you play this progression, you'll notice that the tonal center, i.e. the key, is Bb. Play more 12-bar blues songs and you'll start to have a feeling for how it works.

A guitarist will likely play a Bb blues scale over it (except from the Ab chord I suppose), but don't let the minor third (actually a #9) in the blues scale let you think you should play a minor third as well on your bass. You play a major third as long as there is no "m", "mi" or "min" in the chord. I say this because once I heard a guitarist (guitard?) playing "That's alright" by Elvis in minor, probably because the melody pretty much is following the blues scale, which reminds more of the natural minor scale than the major scale. It sounded just plain wrong, don't know how he didn't notice it...

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

Ok, so technically the key is changing at each chord change?

I don't understand how to pick which scale I can play on, when given a chord progression.. whether I need to explicitly follow the chord name (C7 indicating mixylodian scale) or when I am given a chord named C and ultimately have to determine the scale based on the degree that note appears in the scale.. I am guessing this stems from the fact that it is of no consequence to a rhythm guitar player?

I am ultimately just trying to know what notes aren't going to make a musical fart from a technical perspective. I'll admit that it doesn't happen often when I am actually playing but I think this is because I am trapping myself into this box or safe-zone where I can't explore..

I would say that as the bass player in Jazz you are not usually not playing scales - but rather are outlining the chords!

You have to be getting across the "sound" of that chord in context, or you are just not playing that tune!

Ok - for a solo you might think about scales or modes - but your starting point and especially for bass lines, has to be :

Play the chords!

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

So in a nutshell you are saying if you want to create a continued uneasy feel, you would sharp the fourth on the mixylodian scale?

Are there specific chord patterns which are considered resolving? What would a I - IV - V be, for instance? (i would describe it as resolving, though I am not sure I grasp this term correctly)

what do you mean by "like a V - I."

Thanks!

First I should of asked are you working on this bass line or soloing. I was talking about soloing to be clear.

If bass lines you focus would be chord tones and once you get that under your fingers then adding approach notes.

Soloing if getting going then the common starting point is using target and scale for additional resource. So being Blues and all dominant chords you can use all Mixolydian or IMO better default Lydian b7. Then when you practice soloing try to target playing a 3rd or 7th of the chord change.

For beginners its a good exercise for working on 3rd-7th target tones.
To drill your chord spelling knowledge go thru the chart and name the 3rd and 7th of each chord. Do it with out your bass just the a chart this is all mental practice. In beginning this is a slow process, but over time and doing this with other tunes you will get to instantly know your chord tones.

After that then record the changes and practice playing just the 3rd & 7th to each chord change. Get the sound in your ear. Those are to two note that define a chord. So play thru the tune or other tunes just playing 3rd & 7th and listen, also hear how playing those notes on the chord change defines the chord change. Once conformable where the notes are on your neck and hitting them on the chord changes. Now you can work on creating some simple solo idea but still target hitting a 3rd or 7th on chord changes. Learning to do this really lays the ground work for soloing.

Also if you are not that up on your scales for this tune yet do a similar exercise and play the scale in straight eighth notes over the changes.
First do it from Root up on each chord up and down the scale. This gets the sound of the scale in your ear. Now extend the scales to lowest and highest note in the position your are playing. Do now do a similar exercise, but to make it harder define your range highest note in the position and lowest. Those will be your boundaries. Now when like before playing thru the changes if a chord changes and you still have notes before boundary don't go back to the root play the next available note for the next scale. When you get to a boundary reverse direction. When starting do it slow accuracy is most important. Once you get comfortable with your neck in this position then start doing slow with a metronome. Then once you nail it then time to try it with a recording of the changes. This will tie the chord sound with the scale.

So between the 3rd & 7th and scale exercise it is a lot of work in beginning, but pays off big time in fretboard knowledge and ear training.

I won't detail it, but doing the scale exercise with arpeggios is a great tie-in to knowing where the chord tones lie inside the scale. Then doing target tones becomes easier.

Taking exercises like the above and apply it to Real Book tunes is a great education. There are way to take these to move advanced levels too with patterns and bigger distances between boundaries.

Enjoy.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Play the chords!

I am not trying to run up and down the scale.. But if I know the scale the chord is based on than it lets me know what I can throw in that will not sound like garbage..

It seems like the answer I am looking for, and what everyone seems to be telling me is that the blues do not conform to the music theory which most western music fits in..

I was wondering why I can play the root, the 4th, sharped 4th, and 5th (basically a chromatic run) and it sounds perfectly fine, and the answer is the blues scale! (this is the first time I had heard of this)

I do find it interesting you are saying I can play a dominant 7th chord over a guitar player using a minor scale (the blues scale) and have it sound fine.

Without any intention of being rude, I want to say "shut up and play"... When you play this progression, you'll notice that the tonal center, i.e. the key, is Bb. Play more 12-bar blues songs and you'll start to have a feeling for how it works.

My whole point for taking lessons, and for coming here and asking the question is to get a technical understanding of what I am playing..

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by DocBop

If bass lines you focus would be chord tones and once you get that under your fingers then adding approach notes.

I was referring to creating bass lines.. Generally what I have been doing is playing an arpeggio of the chord notes and then trying to throw in some filler notes to move between them. I am using the key/scale to determine which notes are acceptable to play. This is why I was trying to determine the key to begin with.

Originally Posted by DocBop

Soloing if getting going then the common starting point is using target and scale for additional resource. So being Blues and all dominant chords you can use all Mixolydian or IMO better default Lydian b7. Then when you practice soloing try to target playing a 3rd or 7th of the chord change.

So you are saying if I am trying to solo, I should do so from the scale starting on the 3rd or the 7th note of the chord rather than the chord itself?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I was referring to creating bass lines.. Generally what I have been doing is playing an arpeggio of the chord notes and then trying to throw in some filler notes to move between them. I am using the key/scale to determine which notes are acceptable to play. This is why I was trying to determine the key to begin with.

Well this is a big subject and possibly a lifelong study - but I will again say that you need to be outlining the chords, especially on beats 1 and 3 - you can add passing tones on 2 and 4 or when the chord changes - but in most Jazz tunes that will keep you occupied without even thinking about scales!!

As has been said - key can change and chords can be altered - that's a big part of Jazz! But if you add in all the possible alterations and extensions to chords - then you end up with something similar to a scale....

So for a 7th chord you have to have the root and 3rd and flat 7th - but everything else is up for negotiation!

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Well this is a big subject and possibly a lifelong study - but I will again say that you need to be outlining the chords, especially on beats 1 and 3 - you can add passing tones on 2 and 4 or when the chord changes - but in most Jazz tunes that will keep you occupied without even thinking about scales!!

Would you mind explaining what you mean by "outlining the chords"?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Just play the chord tones!

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Just play the chord tones!

Yeah, every time I suggest that I get flamed by the guys from Down Under.

[EliasR]

An exercise like major arpeggios with a flat 7 would show that even though flat 7s aren't in the key, as the bass player, you set the key. You can make them sound good in a walking line, as long as you outline the 1 and 5, and use the 3 and 7s for definition.

[E2daGGurl]

Which note would one play at the end of the fourth measure, to get the Bb7 to resolve nicely/traditionally into the Eb7? F?

And back to Bb7? C?

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by E2daGGurl

Which note would one play at the end of the fourth measure, to get the Bb7 to resolve nicely/traditionally into the Eb7? F?

And back to Bb7? C?

A note a half step away from the target sounds often good in blues on dominant 7 chords. In this case an E would sound nice to end the fourth bar with. The bassline in the fourth measure (on Bb7) could be e.g.

Bb - D - F - E -

leading into the Eb7 chord. Those two bars of Eb7 could be e.g.

Eb - Db - Bb - Db - Eb - G - Ab - A -

leading back to the Bb using a chromatic progression.


Don't ask me to explain exactly why all this works, though. The possibilities with walking basslines are endless and so are the theoretical explanations to why certain things sound good. Before you've acquired all that theory knowledge, play what sounds good and don't think too much...

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Yeah, every time I suggest that I get flamed by the guys from Down Under.

No, you get flamed for better reasons than that. But among them is that you said "no-one ever got fired for just playing the root notes". You never said anything about just playing the chord tones that I ever commented on.

[needmoney]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Yeah, every time I suggest that I get flamed by the guys from Down Under.

Well I'm offended