"7th Scale"

[Lobster11]

I was just browsing a book by Harvey Vinson titled "Bass Guitar Scale Manual," in which he reviews most of the familiar and common scales but adds one that I don't recall having seen anywhere else before. (All of the others are your basic major and minor scales, blues scale, etc.) He calls it a "7th scale," which in the key of A (the first version of it that he presents) contains A, B, C, C# (or Db), E, F#, and G. I'm not sure what is the correct way to represent it generally, but one would be R, 2, b3, 3 (or b4), 5, 6, 7. One way to describe it would be as Dorian mode with a flatted 4th, although my intuitive reaction is to think of it more as a Mixolydian mode with the 4th omitted and the b3 added.

Anyway, this struck me as interesting for two reasons. First, the author presents it as if it is one of the "primary" or "most-used" scales, but I don't recall ever having seen it elsewhere. Second, it seems potentially very useful for those (many) occasions, especially in rock and blues, where the major/minor tonality is ambiguous and the 4th is often an "avoid" note anyway.

I'm going to fool around with this some and see if it works the way it seems like it ought to. What I'm curious to know is whether this is in fact a widely-used scale, and I'm just the last to find out, or maybe it is something that people use all the time but typically don't give a name as a formal scale. Any thoughts?

[jayarroz]

when I think of 7th I think of Locrian mode but it doesn't seem to fit. I'm lost too, if A was locrian it would A Bb C D Eb F G?

[DocBop]

That author sounds like he's making up his own name for notes he likes, I've never heard of a scale called the 7th scale. My first thought was it was going to be Mixlydian, but seeing the notes you describe it like a common combo of Blues scale and Major Pentatonic.

No one just plays the notes of a pentatonic for long they start adding passing notes and other Blues notes. So in major pent's you will hear people adding the b3 with the 3rd, the #11 to the 5th for classic Blues sound. Now he has both the 6th and b7 most play one or the other in lines. So he just tossed all his options into one scale. At least that is how I look at it.

edit: Could look at it like a Lydian b7 with a b3 Blue note added. That might be the simplest way to think of it. Just remember your two Blue note b3 and b5 they can be add to things to spice them up.

[eschatz]

that scale is a version of the mixolydian with the b3 used as a lower-neighbor or lead-in to the 3. its not really a scale. if you know your blues scale and your mixo then and you know how to use both at the same time then you're playing that. he's just trying to pin down one scale that justifies all of that.

[mutedeity]

This is like that other thread "Em7" scale. What are these authors smoking? Wow a scale with a 7th is a definitive explanation of a scale. Anyone want do to the maths or hazard a guess as to how many scales that defines?

Boy, oh boy.

[ryco]

This looks like a common rock pattern with the b3-3. A lot of times players will slide into a major third and skip the fourth. The second would usually be omitted and maybe played as a ninth.

I dunno. Anything goes nowadays!

If someone labeled a scale a "7th" I would think a Lydian built off of the b7. In "A" = G A B C# D E F#. This idea is totally outside the norm though and not supported by the AFofM or schools.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by ryco

This looks like a common rock pattern with the b3-3. A lot of times players will slide into a major third and skip the fourth. The second would usually be omitted and maybe played as a ninth.

I dunno. Anything goes nowadays!

If someone labeled a scale a "7th" I would think a Lydian built off of the b7. In "A" = G A B C# D E F#. This idea is totally outside the norm though and not supported by the AFofM or schools.

Bottom line the only scale needed is Chromatic, just have to know which notes to emphasize when.

[Lobster11]

Thanks for all the responses.

Later in the book I found some sample bass lines that the author uses to illustrate use of the scale -- over 7th and 9th chords -- and in all of them the b3 is used mainly as a leading or passing note on the way to the major 3rd. And, as someone suggested, he typically uses the scale's second note as a 9th rather than a 2nd. So, it looks like his "scale" basically just captures way in which the Mixolydian mode is commonly used -- i.e., omitting the 4th and adding the b3 passing tone.

[Scot]

Originally Posted by eschatz

that scale is a version of the mixolydian with the b3 used as a lower-neighbor or lead-in to the 3. its not really a scale. if you know your blues scale and your mixo then and you know how to use both at the same time then you're playing that. he's just trying to pin down one scale that justifies all of that.

Yep, that's exactly how I see it. It's a mixo with a chromatic leading tone between the 2nd and 3rd. If you took out the b7 it would be a plain ol' blues scale (major) and if you took out the b3 it would be a plain ol' mixo. This sound can be heard on MANY recordings and I would think of it as a mixo with the chromatic leading tone between the 2nd and 3rd.

If you get in to seriously studying bebop you see that it's very common to use familiar scales such as the mixo but with chromatic leading tones. I wouldn't try to come up with a name for them but would rather focus on finding the "parent" scale and identify the leading tones

[FretFree]

Just seems like an extended blues scale. No 4 or #4 like blues. It's a blues/mixo scale with the "difficult" tones omitted!

[Scot]

Ah, just noticed he didn't specify the "D" (4) note.

So basically, it's a scale that, when played over a 7th chord, any note will sound good, even if emphasized (e.g., not just used as a passing tone). I guess it makes sense why the original author is calling it a "7th scale".

BTW - there is no "b4".