85% of todays top musicians got perfect pitch..

[seeinsidemycell]

That's what David Lucas Burges says in his training method "perfect pitch"- masterclass where he teaches how to gain perfect pitch and relative pitch.

He mentions names such as Yngwie Malmsteen, stevie wonder, frank sinatra etc...

What do you think? is this true?

Besides he debunks the myth that u have to be born with perfect pitch and tells you how he thought perfect pitch didn't exist until one of his rival-piano players who constantly played better he did when he was 14 even though he practiced much more and it turned out that
she could sing any note by memory and tell exactly what note he played on the piano etc..

He says perfect pitch ain't about memorizing how high or low a pitch is, u have to listen closer to discover each pitchs different pitchcolour..

I'm going to work pretty hard on perfect pitch for a while now and really try to get it, my relative pitch which i have worked on is pretty good.. on the site, musictheory.net they have a trainer where u trian your ears to hear intervals between notes(perfect 4ths, minor thirds, major sevenths etc..) and i get about 94% on both ascending intervals and descending ones, a little lower when they are played harmonically..

Here's another good site for relative pitch training iwasdoingalright.com, where they also have an excercise called "melody" where you play anywhere between 2-9notes at chosen speed and after u have heard the tones you shall be able to play them all(with starting tone) instantly.. i'm working on 4notes at very slow speed and i can get them all 4 pretty alright..

Anyways, i would like to know if there's anyone in here who developed perfect pitch later in life and what you think about David Lucas Burges "perfect pitch" masterclass..

[Dave Muscato]

I have the David Lucas Burge course. I can say, from my experience, that it is not possible to develop true "active" absolute pitch if you are not born with it. By active, I mean that you can consistently and precisely sing any note, on cue, without a reference. It is possible to develop a *weak* version of "passive" absolute pitch, which is where you hear a note and can identify it. By weak, I mean that you can't do it quickly and on cue. I can sing a D or a D# on cue, and I could not do this before I took the course. However, I cannot tell you whether the note I sang was in a fact a D nat or a D# until I check. Also, I can only do this first thing in the morning. If I listen to music at all, or try to "confuse" myself by playing random notes on the piano, I can't do it until I clear all the notes out of my head. This is not the way it works with real perfect pitch.

My friend Matt has real absolute pitch. He can sing any note on cue (within his vocal range, of course ), anytime, anywhere, and can name any tone he hears instantly and without thinking. While watching Star Wars in the movie theater once, he leaned over and said to me, "Darth Maul's lightsaber is in the key of F." He often randomly says things like, "That computer is humming a G#," or "Your cat just meowed a Bb." I once asked him if it was possible to develop true perfect pitch, and he said he's certain that it's not.

The David Lucas Burge course did help me listen more carefully and develop a better ear, and I can definitely transcribe better than I could before I did the course. But don't expect real active absolute pitch. My friend Matt did not "discover" that he had perfect pitch until he was 18. My guess is, that's what happened to David. You have to be born with it, and with a little prodding, *if it's there,* it will come out. But if it's not there, a course is not going to put it there.

Your mileage may vary.

- Dave

[seeinsidemycell]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

The David Lucas Burge course did help me listen more carefully and develop a better ear, and I can definitely transcribe better than I could before I did the course. But don't expect real active absolute pitch. My friend Matt did not "discover" that he had perfect pitch until he was 18. My guess is, that's what happened to David. You have to be born with it, and with a little prodding, *if it's there,* it will come out. But if it's not there, a course is not going to put it there.

Your mileage may vary.

- Dave

David Lucas Burges says that he practiced piano 5hours daily, and that he tried all kind of tricks to develop perfect pitch with no results until one day when he finally got it..
he says he showed a friend how he got it and then she after some practice got it aswell..

i think it says somewhere in the book that came with the cd's that 3 out of 5 who use this program got perfect pitch..

[Dave Muscato]

I've read the ads. He says that one day, when he stopped "straining" his ears and "really listened," he realized that he had perfect pitch. I imagine that he had it all along, and just realized it, the same way my friend Matt did. Science has identified the part of the brain responsible for perfect pitch. It's called the planum temporale and it's twice as big in people with perfect pitch as it is in peple without. The brain does have a quality called plasticity - the ability to rewire neural networks. You can literally re-train your brain to respond to music in ways you may have forgotten, but you can't make your brain do things it's not physically able to do. In the same way that Einstein described "rule ruts," your brain becomes accustomed to performing in certain ways. Children who have VERY EARLY formal music training develop a larger planum temporale as they grow than children who don't receive such training. However, once your brain is done growing, that's what you've got to work with for the rest of your life. As I said, your mileage may vary. The course didn't work for me.

- Dave

[seeinsidemycell]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I've read the ads. He says that one day, when he stopped "straining" his ears and "really listened," he realized that he had perfect pitch. I imagine that he had it all along, and just realized it, the same way my friend Matt did. As I said, your mileage may vary. It didn't work for me.

- Dave

Hmm, if that's the case then i should prepare myself to be dissapointed.. i think my natural pitch is worse than average, im better at recognizing relations between notes..

[Dave Muscato]

Do you mean intervals?

By the way, if this interests you, I *highly* recommend the book "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin. The author was a musician and producer for many years before becoming fascinated with the way the human brain processes music and went back to school to study neuroscience. This book explains what he learned and his conclusions.

http://www.yourbrainonmusic.com/

- Dave

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I *highly* recommend the book "This is Your Brain on Music" by Daniel J. Levitin.
http://www.yourbrainonmusic.com/

- Dave

+1 on "This is Your Brain...." Great read, well written.

Also, there is a lot of information out on the web on this subject. There is a lot of thought that perfect pitch is not a musical function of the brain, but more of a 'hyper-language' skill. That makes some sense.

As far as 85% of professional musicians having perfect pitch, I'd say no to that. I would think that the number is closer to 10-20%. I play in a band with 10 people, and 2 have perfect pitch. In music school is was not uncommon to find people with perfect pitch, but it wasn't the rule or the expectation. Steve Reich says he doesn't. Beethoven owned several pitch forks, so its likely he didn't have it either, but rather a very, very highly trained level of relative pitch (he couldn't have composed while deaf without it). I would guess that there are a large number of people with perfect pitch that have no interest in music and don't know they have it.

In the end it's nothing to worry over. Perfect pitch may save you some time, but having a good relative pitch (and that can be learned) and knowing what to do with music is far more important. Naming the pitchs when you can't play with feeling, or create meaningfully is just a step away from a circus act.

[Eric Killinger]

I didnt even know I had perfect pitch until someone told me.

[seeinsidemycell]

Originally Posted by Eric Killinger

I didnt even know I had perfect pitch until someone told me.

Let's hear the story.

[Snarf]

Perfect pitch is a neat tool to have, but honestly I've got more important things to practice at the moment. It's cool though, the piano player in my ensemble last semester took a couple listens to Bill Evans' solo on The Dolphin, then we played the tune and she played half of Bill's solo, half her own. It was crazy.

Absolute perfect pitch though, I would never want. I've heard a lot of people who have that can't stand anything not in perfect tune with A 440. And orchestras usually tune a few cents below 440. So I would never be able to listen to an orchestra . . . yeah, so not worth it.

[agreatheight]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

As far as 85% of professional musicians having perfect pitch, I'd say no to that. I would think that the number is closer to 10-20%.

That sounds about right. I have actually never played with anyone who had perfect pitch... I have mediocre relative pitch myself, and I do fine, lol. I can hear intervals between single notes pretty easily, and I hear intervals within simple / common chords, but I struggle on more complex / uncommon chords. Perfect pitch is a valuable gift for sure, but it is not needed, imo.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I've read the ads. He says that one day, when he stopped "straining" his ears and "really listened," he realized that he had perfect pitch. I imagine that he had it all along, and just realized it, the same way my friend Matt did. Science has identified the part of the brain responsible for perfect pitch. It's called the planum temporale and it's twice as big in people with perfect pitch as it is in peple without. The brain does have a quality called plasticity - the ability to rewire neural networks. You can literally re-train your brain to respond to music in ways you may have forgotten, but you can't make your brain do things it's not physically able to do. In the same way that Einstein described "rule ruts," your brain becomes accustomed to performing in certain ways. Children who have VERY EARLY formal music training develop a larger planum temporale as they grow than children who don't receive such training. However, once your brain is done growing, that's what you've got to work with for the rest of your life. As I said, your mileage may vary. The course didn't work for me.

- Dave

+1 Dave!
A very good and factual post. Absolute (perfect) pitch is an inherited trait involving neurological structures. I am always saddened by the snake oil salemen who claim that they can sell you miracles in a bottle (or a CD). The demands of music are unyeilding and unchanging. Even those with absolute pitch have to be able to work hard for hours every day.

The truth is that many professional musicians, including classical players, singers, composers, etc., working at the highest level as professionals do not have absolute pitch, and the majority who have absolute pitch have it best with the instrument they studied as a child. I would dig out the scientific references, but my library is packed up for moving.

Stop worrying about getting absolute pitch. Find a good teacher who can really "make" you learn what you need to learn. Note, the one who will make you do the hard part, practice and study every day, is YOU! Just my $.02

[DocBop]

I've always heard relative pitch is just as good if not more valuable. Teachers in school said they knew people with perfect pitch that flip burgers or pump gas, some people have it and doesn't mean they can do anything with it. I know a big name guitarist who has been since his daughter was baby goes to her with a A tuning fork, holds it to her ear and say A. He hopes that she will learn the sound of A and relative pitch can take over from there.

I have heard of people who claim to have taught themselve perfect pitch, but tend to be young. I been taking an ear training class and we have been drilling solfege in C major for two months now. It wasn't my intention, but I can hit a pretty good C if I sing Do. I can do great on interval trainers, but still has quite translated to hearing basslines and figuing them out instantly. It's better but not where I want it yet.

I think one of the best ways to work in ear training is to transcibe tunes. From nursury rhyme melodies progressing to basslines and solos. It develops the relationship between hearing and playing. One ear training class I took we used our instruments (unplugged) when singing the solfege melodies. So we related the Do-Re-Mi's to the instrument as we sang them.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by Snarf

orchestras usually tune a few cents below 440. So I would never be able to listen to an orchestra . . . yeah, so not worth it.

Not a big deal but most orchestras I've dealt with try to tune at 440. But string players going for brighter sounds may eventually push this to 442 or 444 by the end of the concert.

Historically standard pitch of A has crept up from about 430ish 200 years ago to where it is now. (we know this from tuning forks used at various times in the past) So, I guess a person with perfect pitch from 1770 brought back today would find that music is quite sharp today. So it would seem that the ability to retain pitch memory (perfect pitch) would be just that, an ability that would need to then learn what the pitches are. When I was in college as a music major I knew a girl that played clarinet and piano. She had total pitch recall on both those instruments, but was clueless to name pitches from other instruments. My guess is that she had yet to learn what other instruments sounded on idenified pitches.

[Osama_Spears]

how do you know the note is a Bb? like do you need to know basic fundamentals to put a name to the pitch? perfect pitch is so weird...but i wish i had it

[seeinsidemycell]

Originally Posted by Snarf

Absolute perfect pitch though, I would never want. I've heard a lot of people who have that can't stand anything not in perfect tune with A 440. And orchestras usually tune a few cents below 440. So I would never be able to listen to an orchestra . . . yeah, so not worth it.

Well, being picky like that is like complaining on your neighbours colourscreen television because green looks a little brighter or red looks a little bit darker..

[Deacon_Blues]

My twinbrother has perfect pitch, which he and the rest of the family has been aware of since our childhood. He was always considered kind of a prodigy. I have nowadays a reasonably good relative pitch, but it didn't start to develop until my teen years when I started to play the guitar. My brother has been playing piano since he was seven or eight years old, and nowadays he is a professional pop/jazz pianist and piano teacher.

Here's the two most essential differences between me and my brother regarding the relative/absolute pitch:

- He never plays a wrong note or chord, unless the keyboard is transposed. He says he has to play on memory, not by ear, to play correctly if it is transposed. I don't really know how it is affecting his ability to read music though. I can sometimes experience this "problem" myself if the guitar or bass is tuned down at least a whole step, but it is by far not as evident as for my brother.

- He can always instantly identify notes ("that was a false B flat") and chords, even the most advanced ones, without doublechecking on the piano. He's always right. I can guess the pitch using my voice to about ±1 whole step, but it takes me some time.

Still, I'd like to mention that he of course considers the absolute pitch useful, but he really emphasizes that there is so much other things that are more important than the perfect pitch. Timing, sight reading, knowledge of music, technique, creativity etc. etc. are far more important and has nothing or very little to do with the perfect pitch. That's important to remember. Perfect pitch alone doesn't make anyone a great musician. Playing music and listening to lots of music does. That will give you a good relative pitch which is very useful.

Forget about the hype around perfect pitch and start playing instead!

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by Snarf

...I've heard a lot of people who have that [Absolute Pitch] can't stand anything not in perfect tune with A 440. And orchestras usually tune a few cents below 440...

Originally Posted by BassChuck

...Historically standard pitch of A has crept up from about 430ish 200 years ago to where it is now [440 and higher] (we know this from tuning forks used at various times in the past). So, I guess a person with perfect pitch from 1770 brought back today would find that music is quite sharp today. So it would seem that the ability to retain pitch memory (perfect pitch) would be just that, an ability that would need to then learn what the pitches are...

This is a complicated subject, n.b., I do not posses AP. A couple of anecdotes:

My wife performs and records a lot of early music, operas, oratorios, etc. Baroque "period performance" groups usually use some "historically informed" pitch that is determined by scholars to be theoretically correct for a given period, style, composer, country, and court. Plenty of the players have absolute pitch and adjust with little trouble.

In addition, one of my teachers, George Perle (now in his 80s), who is the greatest musician I have ever known, has terrific absolute pitch. Besides being a great composer and scholar, George is also a classical pianist who can play practically any piano work or orchestral score at sight. Yet, he once complained to me that his "pitch" was sinking. Things in A major had started to sound like they were in Ab major. This phenomena has been noted by other older musicians, too, and I have read it is related to changes in the brain as we age.

There are lots of degrees/varieties of AP.

[cowsgomoo]

no way do 85% of today's 'top musicians' (however you would attempt to measure it) have perfect pitch

Sinatra had perfect pitch? so how would one explain his out-of-tune bellowings on some of his most famous recordings?

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

no way do 85% of today's 'top musicians' (however you would attempt to measure it) have perfect pitch

A study in a Psychology of Music Text I read put it at around 60% for English Symphony Orchestra players. The study allowed that Absolute Pitch could be for a single instrument, and it that might other than one currently used in performance.

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

Sinatra had perfect pitch? so how would one explain his out-of-tune bellowings on some of his most famous recordings?

Please be sure not to confuse good intonation, the ability to discriminate the higher or lower of two pitches especially in performance, with what is called Absolute (perfect) Pitch. If you are not sure what is meant by Absolute (perfect) Pitch, check a dictionary or a Wiki.

Honestly, I don't mean to be rude or disrepectful by that. It is commonly assumed that "perfect pitch" means perfect intonation. It doesn't. In fact, some choral singers with absolute pitch have terrible intonation problems if the chorus as a group slips to a lower reference pitch. Not all performers with absolute pitch can adjust that quickly. I have heard the results many times in various New York choral concerts in which my wife was either in the chorus or singing as a sololist. OMG, a very sharp soprano is not a lovely thing to hear, especially in a high register.