About Keys and Scales

[cyberfrenzy]

I know you must be asked this very often, but what is the difference between keys and scales? How do you identify them, incase they are different?

[MarkTAW]

In general you can think of them as being the same. The 'key' is the central tonality of the song (the root note) and the character (major or minor). The scale is the actual notes that make up that root + character.

So if you're in the key of C major the scale is made up of the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C.

Key = C major
Scale = notes

As a musician (and Bruce will chime in here and tell me why this is wrong), you're going to ask "What is the key?" and be expected to know what the scale is.

[Bruce Lindfield]

No I just think you're wrong on the first part!

So there are many scales - pentatonic, whole-tone, diminished etc. which are not like the key in which you may think you are!

There are many scales you could play for a particular key.

So there are several types of minor scale - natural minor,melodic minor, and harmonic minor - and that's not even mentioning modes!!

[mambo4]

I generally think of it like this:

Essentially there's only 12 possible keys. Keys are constructed entirely on the major (Ionian) scale. Each of these also has a related minor(aeolian) and other modes, but the notes are basically the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MajorScales.svg

There's way more than 12 scales, most of which are variants or simplifications of the various Modes.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by mambo4

I generally think of it like this:

Essentially there's only 12 possible keys. Keys are constructed entirely on the major (Ionian) scale. Each of these also has a related minor(aeolian) and other modes, but the notes are basically the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MajorScales.svg

There's way more than 12 scales, most of which are variants or simplifications of the various Modes.

Actually I think there are 12 possible tonal centers in western music. Any/all scales are based off of those.

But this is an interesting thread. Are Keys in the western music sense made up of scales or the chords? Can a monophonic melody be in a key without any harmony? Can an "atonal" monophonic melody be forced into a key by applying the proper harmony?

Discuss amongst yourselves.

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Essentially there's only 12 possible keys.

Nope. There's 15 major keys and 15 relative minor keys. Here's a nice graphical representation of the circle of fifths, and the relationship between major and minor keys.



The key dictates the tonal center and the corresponding scale(s) (including modes) that you would use within that piece. That will either help or confuse you more.

[skeptikal]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

Nope. There's 15 major keys and 15 relative minor keys. Here's a nice graphical representation of the circle of fifths, and the relationship between major and minor keys.



The key dictates the tonal center and the corresponding scale(s) (including modes) that you would use within that piece. That will either help or confuse you more.

I'm only counting 12 slices of of the pie

Good thread though none-the-less. When your guitard looks at you and says "Play some blues in A" you'll now know what he's talking about.

[skeptikal]

I did have a question though, I've been trying to get grips on what notes I can and can't play during a solo (or just another variation of the line) and this just reminded me of it.

So say the major key of the song is G, would I be able to play all the notes in the Gmaj scale as well as all the notes in the Emin scale?

[dystopiate]

Well, you get the same notes in Emin and Gmaj. Not all notes will sound good at all times just because they're in the scale. Not all notes that aren't in the scale will sound bad at all times. How's that for only adding fuel?

[Dbassmon]

Originally Posted by skeptikal

I did have a question though, I've been trying to get grips on what notes I can and can't play during a solo (or just another variation of the line) and this just reminded me of it.

This question has almost endless answers but here is the short version.
You can play scaler (notes within a scale)
You can play arppeggiated (notes within a given chord)
You can play chromatically, notes which may not appear in the chord or scale but resolve into ones that do. (tension/resolution)
Or a combination of all of the above.
Advanced concepts include tritone substations or atonal playing.

A teacher will make these concepts understandable and useful. These concepts will mean little or nothing as your read the post but at least you will have heard the terms. Get a teacher is the best answer I can give.

[skeptikal]

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

This question has almost endless answers but here is the short version.
You can play scaler (notes within a scale)
You can play arppeggiated (notes within a given chord)
You can play chromatically, notes which may not appear in the chord or scale but resolve into ones that do. (tension/resolution)
Or a combination of all of the above.
Advanced concepts include tritone substations or atonal playing.

A teacher will make these concepts understandable and useful. These concepts will mean little or nothing as your read the post but at least you will have heard the terms. Get a teacher is the best answer I can give.

Thanks, I have a teacher but this is really what I needed. So I could put it into musical terms of what I want to learn. I hate going in there and him asking "So what do you want to learn today?" and I say "I don't know" and we end up figuring out a song. Pretty worthless IMO. Spend $20 to learn a song in a half hour.

Thanks dbassmon!

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by skeptikal

So say the major key of the song is G, would I be able to play all the notes in the Gmaj scale as well as all the notes in the Emin scale?

Not all notes all the time. It really depends on the chord of the moment. For example, If the chord was Gmaj (G-B-E), then emphasizing the note C (4th scale degree of G) is generally considered and 'avoid' note as it clashes with the B.

But context and your ear will dictate when it's appropriate - you can often get away with the 4th as a passing note in walking type of thing.

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by skeptikal

I'm only counting 12 slices of of the pie

True, but while Db major and C# major are harmonically the same, the fact is that one uses sharps and the other uses flats. A detail, yes, but it needs to be pointed out. Same goes for F# / Gb major, and Eb / D# minor. There's the other three. I promise that a wind player would look at those keys quite differently, and so would some composers.

[skeptikal]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Not all notes all the time. It really depends on the chord of the moment. For example, If the chord was Gmaj (G-B-E), then emphasizing the note C (4th scale degree of G) is generally considered and 'avoid' note as it clashes with the B.

But context and your ear will dictate when it's appropriate - you can often get away with the 4th as a passing note in walking type of thing.

Ooooo Lol I should just pay you guys to give me lessons! Reading = sucks though.

All very helpful information! Thanks!

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

No I just think you're wrong on the first part!

So there are many scales - pentatonic, whole-tone, diminished etc. which are not like the key in which you may think you are!

There are many scales you could play for a particular key.

So there are several types of minor scale - natural minor,melodic minor, and harmonic minor - and that's not even mentioning modes!!

That's what I meant by "character"!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

That's what I meant by "character"!!

Or were you just plain WRONG!!

[mutedeity]

The way I see it, scale and key are definitely not the same thing.

A scale is a group of notes, generally played in order to express the relationship between those notes. I don't necessarily think that a group of notes is a scale just because they are played as part of a melody or other compositional structure, though. You can base a melody on a scale, but that doesn't mean that the melody is a scale. A scale can be any group of notes that are presented in this sense too, they don't necessarily even have to be chromatic or even-tempered in relation to each other.

Key on the other hand is the way that a group of notes are ordered based on diatonic hierarchy. The main idea behind key is where the tonal centre lies. Other than that key is just a way of "shorthanding" sharps and flats on a score sheet.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by skeptikal

Thanks, I have a teacher but this is really what I needed. So I could put it into musical terms of what I want to learn. I hate going in there and him asking "So what do you want to learn today?" and I say "I don't know" and we end up figuring out a song. Pretty worthless IMO. Spend $20 to learn a song in a half hour.

Thanks dbassmon!

By the way, your teacher should know what to teach you before you get there. If he is asking you what you want to learn every week and only teaching you songs because you say "I don't know", you are wasting your money.

[Stumbo]

How many votes for a new teacher?
+1

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

True, but while Db major and C# major are harmonically the same, the fact is that one uses sharps and the other uses flats. A detail, yes, but it needs to be pointed out. Same goes for F# / Gb major, and Eb / D# minor. There's the other three. I promise that a wind player would look at those keys quite differently, and so would some composers.

No they wouldn't. You could easily say the same thing about A# / Bb, which wasn't given two notes in the pie slices. Also, if you want to get downright anal about it, C is also Dbb and B#. But they're all the same things, and any composer or musician would approach them the same way.

Speaking of anal, Bruce, the only flaw that MarkTAW made was not stating that the key and the MAJOR scale corresponded. Throwing in all those other scales is meaningless. The key relates to the major scale of the key, period.