Advice? How not to copy my guitarist.

blisster · #1 05-15-2010, 04:11 PM

I have just joined a new original band. We play hard rock/metal. This band is a bit different than what I'm used to because I'm used to working with a rhythm guitarist. This guy is a lead player who is now the sole guitarist/riff writer in the band.

He is a really good player but im having trouble knowing what to do in alot of spots because he plays riffs that are more like mini leads. He writes stuff that sounds good (or challenging) when he's playing alone in his room.

Now I'm not trying to say anything bad about his style, but I am having trouble knowing where to go within his scales without completely copying him. As a bass player that seems really lazy to me (despite the physical difficulty) but I'm faking my way through alot and am not happy with what i'm doing.

Some of the riffs I copy and its what i want to do, but other times i feel lost and just play whole note hammer-ons up to the root while maybe hitting another note in the scale if he hangs on it an extra split second. I can't just hang on the root because i'd be there for the entire verse on most of these songs minus the few where he has verse turnarounds.

So I'm looking for some advice for playing with a guitarist that is all over the place... and make the band sound good. Everybody seems really happy with what I'm doing but I don't feel like i'm doing my job at all. I've already started using a pick to keep up and I dont want to become a 4 string rhythm guitar player.

I cant just stay in the same scale and come up with my own riffs outside his notes, can I?

Any advice would be appreciated.

ReBass · #2 05-15-2010, 04:19 PM

Hard to say without hearing what the music sounds like, but my generic advice would be to lock in with the drummer more than with the guitarist. If the guitar player is playing difficult runs sometimes your best bet is just to hold down the rhythm instead of trying to keep up with the guitar player.

LarryO · #3 05-15-2010, 04:19 PM

so is there only 1 guitar player?

rpsands · #4 05-15-2010, 04:19 PM

In that kind of situation I often play off the drummer. Add accent notes where he's doing stuff with his hands - just know the chord tones. Say you drop a 5th on a cymbal crash or something like that.

Figure out what chord he's playing, use minor 3rds/major thirds and 5ths, minor 7ths and major 7ths, as needed.

I find that the appropriate 3rd or 5th are always the easiest to work in, and the 7th works in very often. The 6th is harder because most guitar players don't seem to play maj6 or m6's much in their chords - so it is hit or miss whether it'll sound right. Definitely experiment though as it can add a neat sound.

Playing in a 3 piece rules.

MalcolmAmos · #5 05-15-2010, 05:10 PM

The lead guitar is playing melody, fine and good, our job is to harmonize what he is doing - not compete with it and that is best accomplished with chord tones. Stick with the chord changes and let him flow with the melody.

My two cents.....

Eminentbass · #6 05-15-2010, 05:11 PM

With some of the more intricate stuff you could catch whatever notes he's playing on the beats e.g if he's doing a fast 16th note pattern you play the notes on 1,2,3,4 or you could include the 8th notes as well. This could add balls to his line but also leave some interesting spaces. Come to think of it, this might complicate things because trying to leave spaces while you're actually hearing him play the notes could get confusing but it's a thought. I wouldn't do it constantly but it might work to add some dynamics to certain passages.

millsbass5 · #7 05-15-2010, 05:22 PM

Look dude,I've been at this game a l-o-n-g,l-o-n-g time (Studio and live). I'm very proud to say that I have become a first-call guy for studio work here in W.Virginia (When time permits). Just start out with very,V-E-R-Y simple bass lines. Even if it's just pumpin' on the root(LOL!! I said,"Pumpin' on the root!!).
What next after that,you ask??When you get the chord changes & dynamics (Very important!) down,finish building your "house" from there......
A wise man once said (and I quote): E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G needs a foundation!!!
EXAMPLE:What do you do after you lay the foundation for a house?? You add what else that house needs to make it complete!! Same goes for a song too,partner.
Look,even Vic Wooten,Geddy,Claypool etc.,start their bass lines like that too (and build it from there). Even those guys aren't THAT good!! Do you seriously think Geddy played "YYZ" from start to finish,off the cuff?? He's a bad-ass,for sure. But,it's safe to say he ain't THAT good!!!

Oh,one more thing.......Patience!!!

somegeezer · #8 05-15-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReBass

Hard to say without hearing what the music sounds like, but my generic advice would be to lock in with the drummer more than with the guitarist. If the guitar player is playing difficult runs sometimes your best bet is just to hold down the rhythm instead of trying to keep up with the guitar player.

+1

ryco · #9 05-15-2010, 07:52 PM

Also you might try some counter point to some of his lead lines.
If his line is going up, play a harmonization line going down & vice versa.
Don't do this ALL of the time - just once in a while for effect.

But basically start simple and build your way up.
It is a hard task. Sometimes I feel I'm almost playing rhythm guitar parts.
Like MillsBass5 says - stay in the foundation mode and reinforce the drums.

Essen · #10 05-15-2010, 08:03 PM

There will always be some parts or riffs that require you play the same as the guitarist, while others allow for you to do your own thing.

I start out by just finding a melody that could go with what the guitarist(s) are playing. And if the guitar part is already written, you've got all the root notes right there.
A good idea is to look at basslines in other songs, and see why and how they work.

grue · #11 05-15-2010, 08:36 PM

This is a great topic. Look at it as an opportunity to shine as a bass player. I play with a guitarist who does a lot of interesting, complex parts and when we're working on something he has written I have to think about the same things.

I've found that if you're playing something different for one part, like a verse or bridge, and you switch to doubling when the part changes, it can add a really cool emphasis. Sometimes you really do have to suck it up and double, or play something embarrassingly simple like riding the root. I love counterpoints, though, and I really love bass parts that are totally different from the guitar parts, but fit together somehow. They are a lot harder to write, though. Sometimes, I just have him record the part and I work on ideas at home.

If I'm working with a really busy guitar part, I usually like to do a slower, walking melodic part to keep things on an even keel. My general strategy is to just try to come up with a cool melody. Another strategy is to double a few of the "important" notes in the guitar parts for emphasis, then do something different (or just leave space) during the rest of the part.

Good luck!

**bassybill** · #12 05-16-2010, 01:08 AM

Try "hearing" in your head a line that you think would fit, pitch and rhythm wise. Keep it simple at first. If you can sing the line, even better. Then work out how to play it on your bass. Not only will you come up with a line that works, you will also learn a lot if you figure out WHY it works after you've come up with it.

This worked very well for me about 30 years back when I was in a similar situation, where what I'd learned at that point on the bass hadn't really prepared me for the style of music I ended up playing in one of my early bands.

blisster · #13 05-16-2010, 03:52 PM

Alot of good advice. Thanks to all.

I think what is frustrating me the most are the verses which don't seem to have chord changes. He will play in a scale, then repeat it a number of times with slight variations. But he always starts with the same root note.

I'm trying to think of an example but having a very hard time. I guess if you imagined the intro riff to "Crazy Train" played faster and over a steady rock/metal beat and varied the ending every other measure.

Sure, I could ride the F# until his 4th measure midverse turnaround which is another of his trademarks. And I could throw in the octave where it works with the drums, but what do i do in the other two songs that are in the same key and style?

Mind you I'm partially just venting and coming up with my own solutions as I write this post. Bass guitar for me is frustration at times but i love it for the same reasons. Classic rock and some other styles are straightforward but some of the new metal is alot of problem solving and decision making for me.

Anyway, I am staying with the drummer as much as possible and my fingers are getting a serious workout from mirroring his riffs. I always learn them whether i plan on using them or not. My technique has pretty much been to learn the roots, then experiment with his parts at practice, then at the shows we had
i kept it fairly simple, but made them arrange the setlist so i wasnt sounding similar twice in a row. What I really need is some decent recordings.

It's a new band for me (about 8 practices and 2 shows) and I'll find my groove soon (no pun intended), but i'd love to read more about how you guys find solutions to new challenges.

Thanks

MrTAteMyBalls · #14 05-16-2010, 04:05 PM

it sounds like you need to write your own chord progrssion to go underneath what he is doing. lock in on his riffs when necessary,and anchor the band the rest of the time.

Earthday · #15 05-18-2010, 03:52 PM

It depends on what the drummer is doing. I played with a drummer/guitarist combo who never got off each other before. If the guitarist wrote a riff, the drummer just played the rhythm and emphasized the same parts. In that situation, it's tough to do anything BUT copy the line. Amateur hard rock/metal players are especially notorious for that.

Try to make an interesting backbone with the drummer. If need be, talk to him (good luck) and see if you can get him to get away from the guitar, and work off what he's doing. Listen to some Black Sabbath and take note of how Geezer works with the drums, but sometimes emphasizes the guitar melody for power. The solo section of "War Pigs" comes to mind.

anomalybass · #16 05-20-2010, 12:48 AM

the thing Essen said earlier about checking out other bands to see what they do works very well for me. i love nothing more than to write a groovy ass bassline over a busy guitarist. i play bass and sing in a 3 piece alt/metal band and i absolutely love it. one of my favorite bass players is ryan martini from mudvayne. i quit listening to them after the 2nd record, but those guys are a perfect example of what the guys here have been saying. whenever i get lost i just listen to the 1st album from mudvayne and get inspired. martini is constantly playing off the drummer. hit for hit those guys are locked up. alot of times ill play along w the guitar (especially since i have to sing too) and then we let each other breath. he goes on a lead heavy riff and ill sit on a percussive jazz line that does nothing more than fill the pocket. for me its all about having killer tone that cuts through just right, and playing that 1 note that makes everything badass. good luck bro- joep

anomalybass · #17 05-20-2010, 12:55 AM

you should check out the song Severed from Mudvaynes first album L.D. 50. its a little overkill but its a perfect example of what most of these guys have been talking about. even if you dont like the band its worth a listen just to hear some amazing bass playing. -joep

queevil · #18 05-20-2010, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassybill

Try "hearing" in your head a line that you think would fit, pitch and rhythm wise. Keep it simple at first. If you can sing the line, even better. Then work out how to play it on your bass. Not only will you come up with a line that works, you will also learn a lot if you figure out WHY it works after you've come up with it.

This worked very well for me about 30 years back when I was in a similar situation, where what I'd learned at that point on the bass hadn't really prepared me for the style of music I ended up playing in one of my early bands.

I couldn't agree more. What I can add is that if you don't know at least the rudiments of music theory now would be an excellent time to start learning. If you know basic music theory then now would be the time to start learning more. It's helped me tremendously in situations like you described.

Theory is kind of like algebra or calculus. It's a drag if you don't have the foresight to understand how it can be practically applied to what it is you're wanting to do but when you do finally understand then it opens a lot of doors and suddenly your horizons are expanded.

Good news: if you are new to theory the above poster that I quoted has an excellent introductory lesson. Just search his posts.