advice for practicing modes?

[UnderDogbassist]

whenever i try to play them i often slip and end up playing scale of the note that i start on e.g. if i try to practice c dorian, often ill end up playing a d major by mistake. any good advice to help get the feel for my modes?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by UnderDogbassist

whenever i try to play them i often slip and end up playing scale of the note that i start on e.g. if i try to practice c dorian, often ill end up playing a d major by mistake. any good advice to help get the feel for my modes?

IMHO modes are for melody. Our bass is an accompaniment instrument. Sure you can solo on the bass, but, how often are YOU asked to take a lead break? Do you really need to be working on modes?

Running your modes in mode order as in a scale exercise is fine to get your mode into muscle memory, but, does little to help you use a mode to make some melodic phrases. What is the signature note for Dorian? How about the natural 6. The b3 and natural 6 should be the tonal center of your Dorian melodic phrase -- over a modal vamp.

Not trying to yank your chain, but, unless you are playing over a modal vamp you should not be thinking modes. If I'm playing over a chord progression, i.e. chord tones - I find that I do not have room for modes. A modal vamp has to stick around long enough to sustain the modal mood. Chord progressions do not let this happen. Over a chord progression chord tones and Pentatonic scales give me all I can handle. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/175 See what you think of this article. Take the button at the end of the article to the next article on this subject.

[JTE]

Yeah. Don't use 'em. At least not until you know ALL of the following for all the diatonic major scales:

A. How to build the diatonic major scale (mentally) in all keys, using the right enharmonic notes (that is, you understand WHY the key of A has three sharps and you know why Eb has a Bb, not an A#).

B. You know how the scale SOUNDS. You can sing the scale and hear the next note correctly in your head BEFORE you play it.

C. You can find it over at least two octaves and execute it smoothly. That means you can figure out the notes for yourself, not look 'em up on a picture.

IF and only if you can do that, the do the same the the modes. Do NOT work on the modes from the same parent key. Don't work on D Dorian and the G Mixolydian. Do them all with C as the root- Work on C Ionian, then C Dorian, etc. This forces you to deal with the unique sound of each mode. And SING it, fixing the sound of the note in your head before you play the note.

Another thing that will help is to say what you're playing (thing I learned from a Jerry Jemmott lesson). For D Dorian you'd do this "one of D Dorian, which is D" sing the note, then play it. Then say Going a whole step to the second, which is E" sing it, play it, then "going up a half-step to the third, which is F" sing, play, etc.

John

[Kael]

Originally Posted by JTE

Do NOT work on the modes from the same parent key. Don't work on D Dorian and the G Mixolydian. Do them all with C as the root- Work on C Ionian, then C Dorian, etc. This forces you to deal woth the unique sound of each mode. And SING it, fixing the sound of the note in your head before you play the note.

This.

[JimmyM]

while i'm against using modes to play music, i did work on them a lot at one time when i took lessons from dave larue.

what he would have me do is start on a major scale, play it up and down one octave, then jump up to the next scale degree and start there. so if, for example, i started on F, i wasn't referencing starting on the next scale degree as G dorian, i would reference it as an F major scale and starting on the 2nd. helped a LOT!

but again, i +1 everyone who says to forget scales and modes on the gig, and don't try to incoporate them in your music. people who do usually sound like they're running scales, which is the ultimate in lame.

[tjmdetroit]

Play a "G" major scale, up and down....now using the same notes, the same "pattern" start on the "A" note, Dorian, up and down...then the "B" phrygian.... etc...... soon you will HEAR the difference. Run the scale up and down....start slow...if you screw up redo from start. put a little feel when you doing it. I run them in sixteenth notes like...ggaabbccddeef#f#gg.ggf#f#eeddccbbaagg.aabb ........etc. like "What is Hip?...Rocco Prestia from Tower of Power..... machine gun......lol the trick is to get through all 7 modes without a miss...... then start from the top and do it backwards.....lol
It really helps your dexterity and you can start to hear the tone of the mode.... that's the important thing anyway....MUSIC IS ABOUT TONES, NOT NUMBERS. Numbers are used to describe a tone or a combination of tones. ie: (1-b3-5-b7).
peace

tjm

[UnderDogbassist]

so what should i do with modes for the time being? just forget that they even exist until the time is right to use them? or like. i dunno option #2 whatever thaat is.

[JimmyM]

no, you should definitely learn them. it will help you identify note relationships and it's also good for speed practice. but with a band, i would never think about them at all...with one exception...if your band is heavily classical music based, then i might see a slight need for them. but even then, i wouldn't use them. i get way more useful info out of chords. chords don't tell you there are 5 notes in the octave that you can't play. chords say, "these are the main notes you want to emphasize, but you can use any note you want over them as long as you do it with discretion and taste."

[somegeezer]

Progressive Metal can be full of strange modes and scales. One of my favourites to hear being played is Phrygian Dominant. Egyptian sounding scale. It depends on what you play to whetehr you will use them. Mixolydian mode is one that a lot of popular music styles will use for solos and melody and such. Learn them all, even if you never use them, they can help you understand how the notes work together.

[JTE]

Like I said, I think you SHOULD forget about them until after you have a solid foundation in chords. After you can determine for yourself (meaning you haven't merely memorized 'em, and you don't look 'em up on a picture) what notes are in any basic chord- major, minor, diminished, augmented, 7th, major 7, minor 7, half-diminished- and you understand the harmonized diatonic major scale, modes are pretty pointless for most bass playing.

Not that they're pointless, but they're not nearly as important as many people think they are. They'll make sense after you learn functional harmony.

John

[tjmdetroit]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

no, you should definitely learn them. it will help you identify note relationships and it's also good for speed practice. but with a band, i would never think about them at all...with one exception...if your band is heavily classical music based, then i might see a slight need for them. but even then, i wouldn't use them. i get way more useful info out of chords. chords don't tell you there are 5 notes in the octave that you can't play. chords say, "these are the main notes you want to emphasize, but you can use any note you want over them as long as you do it with discretion and taste."

Run triads or sevenths up and down the scale...like a machine gun.... lol... sorry. (I'm hung up on machine gun thingy... I dig the sound when you play it near the bridge like Jaco....lol) pop,pop,pop,pop,pop.....oh wait, thats the sound of Detroit....lol
ie: KEY OF G; GGBBDDGGDDBBGG, AACCEEAAEECCAA, etc.
After all, everybody else has to learn chords... except for those lazy percusionist...

tjm

[MalcolmAmos]

I assume you are in the early stages of your bass journey. If that is the case IMHO you can spend your time on more important things than modes. Modes will just take you off on a side track to nowhere. Because we are an accompaniment instrument not a solo instrument. We provide harmony, rhythm and a groove and that is best done with chord tones.

Now if you were playing lead guitar sure modes have a place and are needed, but, on my bass they just do not fit into what I do.

[BlakeJustBlake]

Modes are useful because it's like "Man, playing chord tones over these chords is cool and all, but how should I spice it up?" and modes give you interesting suggestions on how to do that. So instead of being like "Man, we're playing in this key, I'll just noodle around on this scale and it'll be all good" it'll be like "these chords are being played, so I'm going to be playing in this scale, but I know that this mode mixes well with this chord, so I have more context to play behind this chord than just the idea of this scale"

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JTE

Do NOT work on the modes from the same parent key. Don't work on D Dorian and the G Mixolydian. Do them all with C as the root- Work on C Ionian, then C Dorian, etc.

On the dot - as usual.

A maybe nice way to rembember the differences between modes is using this:

Lydian ---Ionian (major)-------Mixolydian

----------Melodic minor up----Dorian

----------Harmonic minor-----Aeolian (natural minor)

--------------------------------Phrygian

--------------------------------Locrian

Like JTE says, practice on one root note. In the chart, modes that are next to each other (either horizontally or vertically) differ by one note only.
This once only, you may watch your fingers to visualize the scale pattern on the fretboard.
Start by practicing the six scales in bold. They are both the most important and closest to each other in terms of differences. .

[MalcolmAmos]

Chris brings up a very good point - the one note difference and hooking that with playing in the same key, not walking the alphabet.....

This may help to "see" how that works.

Major scale = 1, 2, 3,.. 4,.. 5, 6,. 7
Ionian =........1, 2, 3,.. 4,.. 5, 6,. 7
Lydian =........1, 2, 3, #4,. 5, 6,. 7
Mixolydian =..1, 2, 3,.. 4,. 5, 6, b7
Want Lydian sharp the 4th. Want Mix flat the 7. want Ionian just play the major scale.

Natural minor = 1, 2,... b3, 4,.. 5, b6,. b7
Aeolian = .........1, 2,... b3, 4,.. 5, b6,. b7
Dorian = ..........1, 2,... b3, 4,.. 5,.. 6,. b7
Phrygian = .......1, b2., b3, 4,.. 5, b6,. b7
Locrian = .........1,b2.., b3, 4,. b5, b6,. b7

Want Dorian sharp the b6 back to a natural 6.
Want Phrygian flat the two, etc.

So you are using the major scale as home base for 3 modes just change one note and then if using a minor mode use the natural minor scale as your home base and change one note. But as long as you are just running the mode in note order, well, that's not music. That is a scale/mode exercise. Knowing how to make modes and knowing how to use modes are two different things.

Remember it's melody, playing them in note order sounds like a scale/mode exercise. OK that out of the way, now, does the chord you are playing over stick around long enough to sustain the mode mood, if not why are you using modes -- just use the major or natural minor scale to draw your melody notes from.

Continuing with my rant -- modes produce a mood if played over a modal vamp. If played over a chord progression the modal mood has a hard time developing. Without the vamp to sustain the mood you defeat the purpose of using the mode.

So, if you must, keep working with modes at home so you understand what they can and can not do, but, stick with chord tones on your bass in public --- is my recommendation.

[251]

Originally Posted by UnderDogbassist

so what should i do with modes for the time being? just forget that they even exist until the time is right to use them? or like. i dunno option #2 whatever thaat is.

I find practicing modes lets me see/feel/hear a single scale all along the fretboard. I prefer playing a G maj for an octave, starting on the E string 3rd fret Ionian (2nd finger position, on 3 strings), A Dorian on the 5th fret, B Phrygian on the 7th, C Lydian on 8 etc. Play ascending modes across 3 strings, up to the 15th fret then descending modes (down) to the 3rd fret. It improves dexterity, demands using 2nd finger, 4th finger & 1st finger positions & generally gives me a feeling for the note spacing up & down the board (which carries over to fretless). I also find it easy to use the scales, triads, arpeggios for those modes as fills while improvising.

Sometimes you have to separate practice from making music. 8-)

[Billnc]

The modes do not require years of study. Learn them, get the sounds and move on. If you are playing in D minor, 90 percent of the literature will tell you to play D Dorian. In theory this is correct. But you are also playing over a D minor chord. A raised 7th to the root will work, a b9 to the root will work, +4 to the 5th will work etc. You can also play F major. When playing these other notes, you certainly would never think ' I'm in dorian, now I'm in phrygian etc.'

They can be a huge help when doubling a line, if you know your key and chord and another player wants you to do a unison line, you'll find your way quickly.

[Scottgun]

advice for practicing modes?

Don't. As others said, modes are for academic interest mostly, and just practice them if you run into a specific piece using them. Study chords instead.

[tZer]

I was taking lessons a few years back with special a focus on modes. I, like many, was unclear on how they factored into my bass playing reality.

The exercises I did included playing each scale, 2-octaves (I play a 5'er) up and down the neck - then just the chord tones as arpeggios (1, 3, 5 and 7 x2 octaves).

I like JimmyM's method of simply playing the scales in reference to their 'parent' major scale by degrees. I am going to add that to my routine.

I found that when I had the mode arpeggios fresh in my head, I could be jamming with my group and opting to use any one of the mode's arpeggios and scales while jamming in a particular key. I used them as a way to start a melodic idea from the third, fifth or seventh of the particular key/chord.

Mind you, these were vamps where we were essentially in a static key for extended measures - not changes that were changing every other beat. So vamping over a section that simply bounced from E to A allowed me to explore using the modes to explore melodic ideas for solos and counter melodies.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by 251

I find practicing modes lets me see/feel/hear a single scale all along the fretboard. I prefer playing a G maj for an octave, starting on the E string 3rd fret Ionian (2nd finger position, on 3 strings), A Dorian on the 5th fret, B Phrygian on the 7th, C Lydian on 8 etc. Play ascending modes across 3 strings, up to the 15th fret then descending modes (down) to the 3rd fret. It improves dexterity, demands using 2nd finger, 4th finger & 1st finger positions & generally gives me a feeling for the note spacing up & down the board (which carries over to fretless). I also find it easy to use the scales, triads, arpeggios for those modes as fills while improvising.

Sometimes you have to separate practice from making music. 8-)

Well, this is what I have trouble with. A scale is a basis for music, so you need to be able to understand it no matter which note it starts on. Whether it's the diatonic major scale, or E Aeolian, you need to know and hear what it sounds like no matter which note you start on. So instead of thinking that the fourth position is A Dorian, I'm thinking it as G major, starting on the second. But I'm very much aware that it's the second, not the root of A Dorian. And I practice this stuff starting at the lowest note in the position to the highest, not from root to root.

So, in fifth position I'm thinking 2 3 4on the E string, then 5 6, then (shift to fourth position) 7 1 2, then 3 4 5.

John