Am I killing my tone?

[::Saint::]

It seems like no matter what I do I'm never entirely happy with my tone .. I'm finding I'm either sounding too muddy or too weak, but that strong, full and punchy sound is really elusive.

I've accepted the idea that it might be bad technique on my part - I play pretty much entirely with fingers, and I'm not sure what I can be doing differently, but that is another topic. What I'm really worried about is that some combination of my gear is causing my problems.

My current setup is a MIM Fender Deluxe Jazz V, played through a Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0 Head into Mesa Powerhouse 2x10 + 1X15 cabs on the amp side.

I also have some pedals in between, starting with a Boss LS-2, with one loop containing a Blowtorch and an Ibanez SB-7, and the other Loop containing a Bass Big Muff and an Ibanez PD-7 (and sometimes a Bogdan O/D). Just recently I've been going form the LS-2 into a Sansamp Bass Driver Deluxe, and from there into my amp.

I got the Sansamp to facilitate better switching of EQ settings, etc, and as a good recording interface, and while it definitely has changed my tone, I'm not sure whether it is an improvement or not. Particularly I am finding it is amplifying certain undesirable noises such as fret buzzing/clicking/popping and of course Sansamps are known for sucking mids or at least making them hard to dial in as they have no Mid-Knob.

Another thing I am noticing is a huge difference in volume between a totally bypassed signal flow and turning on any of my effects. Essentially my volume drop dramatically when everything is bypassed, like to the point where I can barely hear it. Could this boost be causing tone issues? Do I need to find a way to get this more evened out? I'm not really sure how aside from turning the volume to next to nil on all my pedals and then cranking the amp up.

I know this is maybe a bit vague, but any suggestions or insight would be appreciated!

[::Saint::]

I guess I should also mention what strings I am using. Currently I am using DR Nickel Lo-Riders, though I switched to Rotosound 77 Flats for a few practices and found that while I got a very bassy sound, the mud factor was a bit much. I used those flats on my old bass (an early 90's Fender Jazz Bass Plus V with Lace Senser pickups), and they had a much more even and slightly aggressive sound.

[BigOldHarry]

Tone in what situation? Playing alone or in the mix?

[::Saint::]

In the mix, I'd say. I sometimes practice solo, but it's all about the band..

[PluckyThump]

Sounds to me like there is a problem with one of your pedals or loops.

I would start by plugging your bass directly into the amp, using a cable that you know is good. Set the EQ on your amp and bass to flat. Set the gain on your amp as high as possible without clipping. Start with that and go from there. With that equipment you should be able to get a good tone with just a bare-bones setup. If not then you may need to change your bass or head or cabs. Doesn't mean your stuff is bad, it just may not work for your situation.

[LowDownWays]

Know anyone who could loan you a sealed 410? See if that might get you closer to strong and punchy.

[newbold]

pump your mids and don't be afraid of turning the tone knob up.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by ::Saint::

I also have some pedals in between, starting with a Boss LS-2, with one loop containing a Blowtorch and an Ibanez SB-7, and the other Loop containing a Bass Big Muff and an Ibanez PD-7 (and sometimes a Bogdan O/D). Just recently I've been going form the LS-2 into a Sansamp Bass Driver Deluxe, and from there into my amp.

I got the Sansamp to facilitate better switching of EQ settings, etc, and as a good recording interface, and while it definitely has changed my tone, I'm not sure whether it is an improvement or not. Particularly I am finding it is amplifying certain undesirable noises such as fret buzzing/clicking/popping and of course Sansamps are known for sucking mids or at least making them hard to dial in as they have no Mid-Knob.

Another thing I am noticing is a huge difference in volume between a totally bypassed signal flow and turning on any of my effects. Essentially my volume drop dramatically when everything is bypassed, like to the point where I can barely hear it. Could this boost be causing tone issues? Do I need to find a way to get this more evened out? I'm not really sure how aside from turning the volume to next to nil on all my pedals and then cranking the amp up.

The first thing to do is eliminate all the variables that you can... eliminate all the stuff in the effects loop. Set the amp to flat and see how that sounds. I'll make a guess that it sounds fine.

The little hint that makes me believe this is that there should be no (or little) net gain from the effects in the loop. If there's a lot of gain, there's only so much dynamic range in a pedal and my guess is that since most are not made with +4 line level signals in mind (your amp's loop is line level) you are probably overdriving some or all of your effects. If you take the +4 of the loop and add say 6dB of gain (double the signal level), you are out of headroom add +10dB is beyond what most effects can handle. This is also why all the undesireable noises are now audible. Gain structure is important.

[::Saint::]

I've been thinking about the boost situation and I think I may have been attempting to compensate for what I perceive as a lack of volume on the amp side by boosting the crap out of my signal chain, when really I should just turn up the danged amp. I guess it doesn't help that I'm playing through a single 8ohm cab at rehearsal at the moment -- once we get storage again I'll be able to bring in the 15" as well and hopefully resolve some of the volume issues.

I'm also thinking of taking the LS-2 right out of the equation as I'm finding I'm not using the switching capabilities nearly as much as I had though was going, nor am I using it as a blend the way I expected I would either, so it's kind of a big tone-sucker without much benefit.

I hadn't really thought about overdriving my effects, either.. I kind of figured since most of my effects are distortion pedals in one sense or another that overdriving them would be a good thing (as such my bass volume is always at 10, but maybe that's a mistake?)

I do think I am going to get rid of the Sansamp as well.. it's just a rental at the moment anyway, which I am glad I chose to do instead of just buying it. I'm finding I like the idea better than I like the actual pedal. As nice as it is to have 6 presets available, it does me little good when I can't even manage to dial in 1 or 2 desirable sounds. Not to mention the fact that it is severely unintuitive to program, and the drive control has a HUGE impact on overall volume that the level control seems completely incapable of managing. AND I have no mid-control, which is a huge pain. I would almost rather have a single knob, like a passive bass, than a bass and treble and no mid.

[ehque]

Having the bass volume at 10 is ok, people do it all the time.

You'll want to work through the gain structure of your pedals again. They shouldn't be much louder than your bass. Adjust your amp volume with the pedals in bypass, then adjust the output gain on each one so that its about as loud as the bypassed sound. Obviously there will be some difference, but shoot for a volume at which both the bypassed sound and the effected sound are usable in a band context.

To "turn up the mids" on the sansamp, cut the bass and treble knobs slightly (perhaps to 11 o' clock) then turn up the overall volume. This has the effect of turning up the mids, and is what most people who use the sansamp pedals do to get more mids. At least, its what i do.

It's also easy to overuse your pedals - since most of your pedals are gain-based, they have the unintended effect of reducing the dynamics of your playing (louder sounds become softer, softer sounds become louder, just imagine playing through a full-on fuzz). A lot of the "punch" in bass comes from the initial attack and decay, and so perhaps laying off the heavier stuff (or perhaps, blending in a lot of clean signal) will help in restoring that attack.

Other than that, jazzes are not known for punchy - at least, the sound that comes to mind when i think of a jazz bass is clean and smooth - perhaps you'll want to try something with humbuckers.

[::Saint::]

Any suggestions for basses with Humbuckers? I think I'm going to go passive the next time I buy a bass.. less headaches and better with F/X, generally. I had an ATK for awhile but I sold it to get the Jazz.. I felt at the time it was a little too aggressive for my needs, but I'm kind of regretting that now At least the string through body option provided a bit of a percussive punch.

I've thought about finding a P Bass, but there's not much worthwhile in 5-string P's, and I do like my Jazz.. at least I think I do. It's nice looking

[bigblondeafro87]

Listen to a recording of yourself in a band situation and you may hear its not as muddy as you think. Of course, in some rooms you're always gonna sound like crap so try moving to a different room. I sometimes think that I sound muddy but when I listen to a recording of the show I find that I sounded a tooon better than I thought I sounded. You are your own worst critic after all

[southernrocker]

I think everyone is somewhat unhappy with their tone. It is a never ending struggle, friend.