Am I right in thinking...(modal content) Also, some questions on diatonic harmony!

[Fassa Albrecht]

Yes, another modes question, along with another question on diatonic harmony.

Would I be right in thinking that modal usage is directly connected to the qualities of the chord being played over and not the tonic note itself? It may seem a dumb question, but the book I'm learning jazz bass from, whilst it takes you through the usual C Ionian, D Dorian etc. palaver, it doesn't actually explain the function of the patterns of intervals, except briefly). Then it talks about playing Mixolydian over dominant 7th chords and Dorian over minor 7ths, and this is the only reason I can think of, as each mode used shares the same tonal qualities as the guitar chord being used.

Similarly, I've been studying diatonic triads, and it gives the pattern in which diatonic triads occur within the major scales- I Major, ii minor, iii minor, IV major etc. But how do I actually connect this to using the major and minor modal patterns I've been learning? Is it that I use the appropriate major/minor mode on that scale degree in that key?

[MalcolmAmos]

The melody line and the chord progression, i.e. the notes used in the melody and the notes used in the chords played under that melody should share some of the same notes. When they share like notes the two lines harmonize each other. That fact goes a long way in explaining how scales and chords work together.

Now take that to what you are studying and I think you will understand - see the big picture a little clearer.

Another thing that helped me understand the scale chord relationship was when I learned how to stack scale notes in 3rds to form the chords that are made from a specific scale.

C scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B
Now stack those notes to get the chords. C chord is made of the C-E-G notes (every other note in the scale)
Next chord would start with the D for D-F-A OK for the neat thing What are the notes in the D major scale?
D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# so D-F-A is the 1-b3-5 notes and you just got yourself a minor chord. Take it on out to all 7 of the chords. When you finish that make four note chords Cmaj7 = C-E-G-B which is the 1-3-5-7 intervals of the scale and the D chord will be the 1-b3-5-b7 or Dm7 chord.

When I stacked the scales notes in 3rds the light bulb came on for me. Back up and get a grip on diatonic harmony, after you understand diatonic harmony; modal awaits, but, IMHO understand diatonic harmony first.

Yes most books tell you how to make the modes very few go into detail on how they can/should be used.

Have fun.

[Fassa Albrecht]

I'm still confused as to why the book I'm using gives the major/minor patterns of diatonic triads. How is this used?

[251]

If you are playing bass lines, pay attention to the notes in the chord of the moment. Try beginning each measure with the root of the 1st chord in the measure.

If you are improvising, the relation of the 1st note you play to the chord of the moment will be important. Have you run across the concept of "Guide Tones?" Many Jazz players use the 3rd or the 7th as a point to begin an improvised line. You can say, they are using a Phrygian or Locrian mode from which to choose notes. Keep in mind, a reed, horn or keyboard player doesn't play patterns on their instrument the way a string player plays on a fretboard. The application of modal thinking to Jazz has it's roots in lead instruments rather than rhythm instruments.

Stay aware of your role in the music being played. It is important not to confuse playing a bass line (accompanying) & improvising. Those are different tasks playing Jazz that are not interchangeable.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Fassa Albrecht

I'm still confused as to why the book I'm using gives the major/minor patterns of diatonic triads. How is this used?

Some songs are played in the major keys, thus use a major scale pattern. Some songs are played in a minor key, thus use a minor scale pattern.

When you finish stacking the notes of the C scale you are going to have three major chords, three minor chords and one diminished chord. Now the C major and Am scale have the same notes and the same chords. If you base your harmony around the major chords your song is going to sound major. However, if you base your harmony around the minor chords your song is going to sound minor.

Your book is giving you both the major and minor patterns so you can function in both major and minor keys.

If I've missed the mark, rephrase and come back.

[Fassa Albrecht]

Originally Posted by 251

If you are playing bass lines, pay attention to the notes in the chord of the moment. Try beginning each measure with the root of the 1st chord in the measure.

If you are improvising, the relation of the 1st note you play to the chord of the moment will be important. Have you run across the concept of "Guide Tones?" Many Jazz players use the 3rd or the 7th as a point to begin an improvised line. You can say, they are using a Phrygian or Locrian mode from which to choose notes. Keep in mind, a reed, horn or keyboard player doesn't play patterns on their instrument the way a string player plays on a fretboard. The application of modal thinking to Jazz has it's roots in lead instruments rather than rhythm instruments.

Stay aware of your role in the music being played. It is important not to confuse playing a bass line (accompanying) & improvising. Those are different tasks playing Jazz that are not interchangeable.

Understood!

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Some songs are played in the major keys, thus use a major scale pattern. Some songs are played in a minor key, thus use a minor scale pattern.

When you finish stacking the notes of the C scale you are going to have three major chords, three minor chords and one diminished chord. Now the C major and Am scale have the same notes and the same chords. If you base your harmony around the major chords your song is going to sound major. However, if you base your harmony around the minor chords your song is going to sound minor.

Your book is giving you both the major and minor patterns so you can function in both major and minor keys.

If I've missed the mark, rephrase and come back.

Right, I think I got it. So basically if the song leans towards the major chords, it's in a major key, and if the song leans towards the minor keys it's minor.

[MalcolmAmos]

Yep.

{edit] Instead of saying leans towards, let's say if the song has a major tonal center - chords with a natural 3rd interval the song will sound major. If the song has a minor tonal center - chords with a b3 interval the song will sound minor.

[Fassa Albrecht]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Yep.

So, to summarize, modes describe the relationship between chord patterns in relation to the root scale (the Ionian) whilst the patterns of diatonic triads allow for creation of minor/major key basslines.

I love you MalcolmAmos! I think you might have finally got the concept of modes into my head!

[mambo4]

Malcom always has helpful advcie!

Some may jump on me for saying this, but when it comes to playign bass lines along to chords, just don't worry about modes.
worry about 1.) the key of the song and 2.) The chords, chord tones, and passing tones.
This is less confusing and simpler to follow, and will get you farther faster than diving into "chord X means play Mode Y" thinking.
Not only that, but if you do this you end up playign the modes anyway, with the added bonus that you can even throw in chromatic passing tones that "aren't allowed" when you try to use modes strictly.

They key of the song will tell you what flavor any chord will most likely be (that's the use of the I-ii-iii-IV stuff)
When playing along with chords I generally prioritize my choices as:
1.) roots
2.) chord tones
3.) "other" tones for rhythmic reinforcement (can be in the key or chromatic, as long as it's stylistically appropriate)

Forget modes until you really get harmony.
The jazz greats were generally not playing modes in any concious way: they thought in terms of chords and chord tones.
But don't take my word for it:
Hal Gaper's take on it (palyed with Dizzy Gillespie)
Carol Kaye's take (about 1:00-4:00 in)

[Fassa Albrecht]

^this is what I'm thinking- playing chord tones means playing modes anyway, so you might as well take the easiest option and play according to the chord.

It'll also be a useful excuse to exercise my guitar knowledge too! I'm pretty good with chord types on guitar and learning stuff this way will also help cement the guitar-bass thing into my playing.


And those two videos are grear!

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Malcom always has helpful advcie!

Some may jump on me for saying this, but when it comes to playign bass lines along to chords, just don't worry about modes.
worry about 1.) the key of the song and 2.) The chords, chord tones, and passing tones.
This is less confusing and simpler to follow, and will get you farther faster than diving into "chord X means play Mode Y" thinking.

The only people who could potentially jump on you for saying that are the guys who have that convoluted "chord X means play Mode Y" thinking. I think your advice is spot on for a bassist.

@OP, take a look at this great free ebook bassybill talks about here:

Music Theory Book - Free Download

You'll find most of your doubts regarding modes clarified in the Advanced section of this book. The explanations are very lucid.

[Fassa Albrecht]

*downloading*


Cheers champbassist!

[Chris K]

+1 to what Mambo4 wrote.

In addition I like to say that yet another less productive way to study is to bother about notes' names too much, f.e. when trying to play Cmaj7, you should not think of the notes c,e,g, and b and where to find them on the fretboard, but know that Cmaj7 needs a major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 7th on c (and learn to play correct intervals on just any note). Play note, x, then play the major 3rd to x etc. etc.

To learn common chord structures, play your major and minor scales with consistent fingering and once you can do that, skip every second note and play 1-3-5-7, 2-4-6-8, 3-5-7-9 etc. etc. on every scale you know. Learn that in the major scale, 1-3-5-7 is maj7, 2-4-6-8 is m7, 3-5-7-9 is m7 etc.

[mambo4]

+1 to what chris k said. Thinking in relative intervals instead of translating into note names and then into fretboard positions is more efficient. When asked to spell a chord I usually visualize the arpeggio on the fretboard first, and then I translate that to note names.

[Fassa Albrecht]

Originally Posted by Chris K

+1 to what Mambo4 wrote.

In addition I like to say that yet another less productive way to study is to bother about notes' names too much, f.e. when trying to play Cmaj7, you should not think of the notes c,e,g, and b and where to find them on the fretboard, but know that Cmaj7 needs a major 3rd, perfect 5th, major 7th on c (and learn to play correct intervals on just any note). Play note, x, then play the major 3rd to x etc. etc.

To learn common chord structures, play your major and minor scales with consistent fingering and once you can do that, skip every second note and play 1-3-5-7, 2-4-6-8, 3-5-7-9 etc. etc. on every scale you know. Learn that in the major scale, 1-3-5-7 is maj7, 2-4-6-8 is m7, 3-5-7-9 is m7 etc.

It's times like this I'm glad I forced myself during piano lessons to learn chord intervals. It translates nicely to bass and guitar.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Fassa Albrecht

It's times like this I'm glad I forced myself during piano lessons to learn chord intervals. It translates nicely to bass and guitar.

It should...it's the same 12 notes But pianos give you a graphical representation of the notes, whereas every note on guitar or bass looks much like the other, so good on you for learning it.

But let's revisit an earlier comment you made:

"this is what I'm thinking- playing chord tones means playing modes anyway, so you might as well take the easiest option and play according to the chord."

Play according to the chord, yes, but modes only allow for you to use 7 notes at a time, whereas the chords allow you to use all 12, so playing according to the chords doesn't mean you're also playing modes.

I'm not against learning scales and modes...understanding scales and modes helps a lot to understand chord formation. It can also possibly give you ideas of what to play for the next time you sit in with a band. But on the bandstand, forget about them and use chords, play like you're singing and not running modes, and think happy thoughts.

There...pretty nice for a BASSHOLE, huh?

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

It should...it's the same 12 notes But pianos give you a graphical representation of the notes, whereas every note on guitar or bass looks much like the other...

Only on unlined fretless

Piano players are not supposed to watch the keys. Bass players, on the other hand, are supposed to watch their keys, but not where their fingers are going.