Am6 = A minor w/ major 6?

[improvpwnd]

Doesn't Am6 = A minor w/ major 6 (A, C, F#)? How would you write A minor with a minor 6 (A, C, F)? Am6dim? Am(b)6?

[ReganSkatKat]

There are a few different things you could do. First, you could just write Amin b6. But because the notes are those of an F major chord you could also write it as an F in first inversion, which would be an F with a subscript 6 next to it.

All an inversion really means is that the root note is not on bottom. In this case the 3rd (A) is on bottom, so it's first inversion. If the notes were arranged with the fifth (C) on bottom, then it would be second inversion. That would be written with a subscript 6 over 4. The number comes from the new intervals that are created by rearranging the notes.

Hope that helps.

[improvpwnd]

Thanks, that does help.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by ReganSkatKat

There are a few different things you could do. First, you could just write Amin b6. But because the notes are those of an F major chord you could also write it as an F in first inversion, which would be an F with a subscript 6 next to it.

All an inversion really means is that the root note is not on bottom. In this case the 3rd (A) is on bottom, so it's first inversion. If the notes were arranged with the fifth (C) on bottom, then it would be second inversion. That would be written with a subscript 6 over 4. The number comes from the new intervals that are created by rearranging the notes.

Hope that helps.

F6 or F^6 would be F A C D. You only use "6" to indicate first inversion when using Roman Numeral Analysis.

F64 means nothing.

A first inversion F major chord in guitar notation would be F/A.

The difference between Am6 and a 1st inv F major chord is the E and the function of the chord. If you're playing an A minor blues you would call it Am6, if you're playing a Mozart piece that would be the IV6/5 chord in C major.

[improvpwnd]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

F6 or F^6 would be F A C D. You only use "6" to indicate first inversion when using Roman Numeral Analysis.

F64 means nothing.

A first inversion F major chord in guitar notation would be F/A.

The difference between Am6 and a 1st inv F major chord is the E and the function of the chord. If you're playing an A minor blues you would call it Am6, if you're playing a Mozart piece that would be the IV6/5 chord in C major.

Just to clarify, my original question was referring to A always being the root.. inversions are important, but not my question.

[funkydanbass]

Am6 has an F# and is not related to any inversion of F major.
If you wanted to notate an F natural over an A min you *could* refer to it as a b13.

All depends on context really...

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by funkydanbass

Am6 has an F# and is not related to any inversion of F major.
If you wanted to notate an F natural over an A min you *could* refer to it as a b13.

All depends on context really...

When you write b13, or any kind of extension, it's generally implied that there's going to be a tetradic (seventh chord) structure underneath it rather than a triadic one. If you write it Amin (add b13), then that's usually clearer, but I personally wouldn't use that nomenclature.

If you're talking about a chord which is spelled A C F, you would write F/A, not any kind of "A" chord. This is because there isn't a perfect fifth to the bass note, but there is to the F (F to C). There's a lot going into what the ear hears as the root of the chord, but usually the harmonics of the "true" root are solidified based upon the presence of a note a fifth away. There are exceptions, of course (half-diminished chords, augmented chords, etc), and context is usually the clarifier, but this is what Russeau used to create the concept of the "root" in his original theory of functional harmony.

If you want a chord that's spelled A C E F, you have a few options, depending on context. You could name it Amin b6, or Amin (add b6), but because there's a half-step between the 5th and the b6, it creates a lot of dissonance, the whole "perfect fifth clarifier" rule is put into question. Most people (myself included) would usually think of this as an F major 7 chord in first inversion, or Fmaj7/A. The exception is probably in a line cliché type progression, like Amin7 - Amin6 - Aminb6 - Amin6, (rare), or more likely, Amin - Aminb6 - Am6 - A7. I would more likely write that as Amin#5, however.

I probably confused you a lot by this post, but hey, hopefully you got something out of it, ha.

[ryco]

Originally Posted by improvpwnd

How would you write A minor with a minor 6

Aminb6, A-b6

If I wanted the notes A C F specifically, I'd write Aminb6 (-5)

[Psychicpet]

does this work as well?

Ami(-6)



and I am totally out to lunch to think that when playing a "6th" chord, you generally shy from the 5th much as you shy from the 3rd when playing a sus4 or sus2 ?

so the fact that the chord is spelled out A C F not having a 5th there doesn't really matter because we're still wanting the context of the chord to be a form of an A chord in the setting of the piece of music?

...been a while since college theory classes, as is probably quite obvious

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Psychicpet

does this work as well?

Ami(-6)



and I am totally out to lunch to think that when playing a "6th" chord, you generally shy from the 5th much as you shy from the 3rd when playing a sus4 or sus2 ?

so the fact that the chord is spelled out A C F not having a 5th there doesn't really matter because we're still wanting the context of the chord to be a form of an A chord in the setting of the piece of music?

...been a while since college theory classes, as is probably quite obvious

Ami(-6) is something I've never seen anywhere. If you want A C F you would notate it as Amin(add b13 omit 5).

[funkydanbass]

I have to agree with Havic5 on this one...

The presence or lack of a 5th in that chord goes along way to define it...

[HaVIC5]

and I am totally out to lunch to think that when playing a "6th" chord, you generally shy from the 5th much as you shy from the 3rd when playing a sus4 or sus2 ?

No, not at all. Playing a 5th on a "6th" chord is actually very important to solidifying the root, otherwise it just sounds like a minor triad in inversion. Technically speaking, there is no 3rd on sus4 or sus2 chord. If you play a third, it will be a non-chord tone, or passing tone.

Ami(-6) is something I've never seen anywhere. If you want A C F you would notate it as Amin(add b13 omit 5)

I dare you to find one piece of published music with that notation. If you do, I'll find 10 others that write it F/A.

so the fact that the chord is spelled out A C F not having a 5th there doesn't really matter because we're still wanting the context of the chord to be a form of an A chord in the setting of the piece of music?

Well, it really depends on the context, but the vast majority of the time it's written F/A. The presence of the fifth is big here. If it's like a pedal A and there are various kinds of A chord moving around, you'd still be likely to write it as F/A, since it's function is likely a sort of upper structure triad over a static pedal. The only exception in written/published music I've ever seen in the so-called James Bond line cliché, or Am - Am#5 - Am6 - Am#5, although in a few places I've seen it written Am - F/A - Am6 - F/A (I don't like this way, it seems a little more confusing, and the line cliché isn't as obvious.

[Deacon_Blues]

Short answer:

Am6 contains the notes A,C,E,F#, e.g. with the minor 3rd, perfect 5th and major 6th.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Short answer:

Am6 contains the notes A,C,E,F#, e.g. with the minor 3rd, perfect 5th and major 6th.

Come on, man, I'm sure you can complicate things more. Give it a shot.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I dare you to find one piece of published music with that notation. If you do, I'll find 10 others that write it F/A.

The notation I wrote is standard Jazz form, check any "New Real Book" volume and you'll see similiar notation. Often times there's different ways to notate a voicing depending on the sound and texture that you want.

Your ability to find 10 examples or 10 times more of something is meaningless.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by improvpwnd

Doesn't Am6 = A minor w/ major 6 (A, C, F#)? How would you write A minor with a minor 6 (A, C, F)? Am6dim? Am(b)6?

It is important to know a few things about harmony and theory and I'll try to make them simple!

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about the spelling of Amin6 (a,c,e,f#).
A sixth in a chord symbol will ALWAYS be major even in a minor chord.
The scale related to that chord is A min melodic (A,B,C,D.E,F# and G#).

But why an Aminb6 doesn't exist AS a chord symbol is because it doesn't make sense to have two half-steps on top of a chord in fundamental position.

WARNING: for those who don't know about theory please keep reading you will learn!

Try on a piano, if you can, the sound of A,C,E and F all together. It clashes!
So, the first inversion a Maj7 chord is not practical (FMaj7/A). It is actually an avoid sound in Pop music.
You have on top of your chord a cluster which means two half-steps on the top notes which creates dissonance: useful in horror movie or when you really want this FX. BUT rarely use in contempory modern music. Because it is a technique in writing you won't find this in conventional theory book.
So what do you do if you want something similar like aminb6?

You take out the note that create the cluster! In this case E.
So we have three notes A,C and F.

So, now you have two ways to look at those notes:
First it is a F major chord in his first inversion (F/A).
Which means a F Major triad over its third OR

It could be something less use as a chord symbol but practical in writing: Amin(#5).
This is the sound you hear as the second chord in the James Bond theme as an example. Those two symbols represent EXACTLY the same sound.

The first one would be spell A,C,F.

The second one A,C,E#.

In the James Bond theme or Brazil as an other example we would use the following chord symbols to make it simpler and obvious:

Amin-Amin(#5),Amin6,Amin(#5) and Amin to make it obvious that there is an Amin chord with a movement in the fifht of the chord going E to f(E#) to F# to F and back to E.

Hope this will help,

Sylvain

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

The notation I wrote is standard Jazz form, check any "New Real Book" volume and you'll see similiar notation. Often times there's different ways to notate a voicing depending on the sound and texture that you want.

Your ability to find 10 examples or 10 times more of something is meaningless.

No, it's not meaningless, it just shows a greater prevalence in convention. And that's what chord symbols are - convention. The more common it is, the more "correct" it is. And that's why calling the chord A C F "Amin(add b13 omit 5)" is "incorrect," it just isn't used anywhere. I'm not talking about the general habit of writing chords that use "add" and "omit 5", there's plenty, and a in a lot of situations, there's good reason to. Maybe not all the time in jazz (add chords are rare, since they're triadic and not tetradic), but definitely in other music. There just isn't ANY good reason here, since its way too much unnecessary information, and potentially obfuscates chord functionality. It's a basic F triad in inversion. You find me this specific notation for this specific chord on a lead sheet or a chord sheet and I'll rescind my point, but I contend that you wont for all the reasons I've given so far in this thread.

But why an Aminb6 doesn't exist AS a chord symbol is because it doesn't make sense to have two half-steps on top of a chord in fundamental position.

WARNING: for those who don't know about theory please keep reading you will learn!

Try on a piano, if you can, the sound of A,C,E and F all together. It clashes!
So, the first inversion a Maj7 chord is not practical (FMaj7/A). It is actually an avoid sound in Pop music.

WARNING x2: The following will descend into the realm of utter music nerddom.

I'm going to have to disagree with you big time on the Fmaj7/A, there's plenty of "pop" (see, jazz, rock, all popular music) with major seven chords in inversion. I can think of several instances in the musical I'm playing right now of this very chord going back and forth from an Fmaj7/A to a Bb6 in the finale. It only "clashes" if you attempt to hear the A as a root, which is problematic for several reasons. Let me explain.

The basic definition of a tertian extension is a harmonic note that adds color to a chord's sound but does not interfere with its function. For example, the 11 on a minor seven chord will make it sound very colorful, but you can still hear it as a minor seven chord within a functional progression. The reason why this is, is because in order for a tension NOT to change the function of the chord, or create "unacceptable" dissonance, it must be a major 9th up from one of the notes in the basic triad. Consider your run of the mill major 7 chord. What's a major 9th away from the root? Duh, the 9. What about the 3rd? The #11. The 5th? The 13. And those are the extensions you're going to find on a major 7 chord. You won't find the 11, because it creates a minor 9 dissonance with the third, thus "confusing" the stable tonic or subdominant function of the chord. Even your bizzare tensions like #9 (favorite of Duke Ellington's) don't create minor 9th dissonances with any notes in the triad and are thus "acceptable" for the tonal purpose (albeit highly, highly dissonant).

The exception of course is dominant chords. Minor 9th dissonances are actually acceptable since the point of the dominant chord is to create tension to resolve to a tonic, and so the main qualm about minor 9 dissonance - that it confuses functionality - is moot (dominant chord's have a dissonant function). Getting too carried away though presents problems. You won't be able to have a natural 9 with a b9, or a #9, because it creates a non-tonal cluster of TWO minor 9 dissonances (root to b9 to natural 9, or natural 9 to #9 to natural 3). You also won't be able to have a natural 11, since the natural 11 is the target tonic note of the dominant chord, and including that dissonance will confuse a lot of things about the chord, and will make it not work.

Getting back on to the topic at hand, this is the reason why there can't USUALLY (exceptions of course) be an A minor triad with a b6. There is a minor 9 (technical minor 2nd) dissonance between the b6 and a note in the functional triad, the 5th. Minor chords have a stable tonic, or in some cases subdominant function, and so when the b9 dissonance is added into the mess, the ear rejects the notion that it is hearing a "stable" sound, and instead searches for another note to hear as the root.

It instead will hear "F", because, like I said before, there is a fifth between F and C. The 5th, being the 2nd partial in the overtone series, creates a foundation for the ear to hear the F more firmly. Oddly enough, this is FURTHER solidified by the A of all notes, because the major third is the 4th partial in the overtone series (the octave is number 3). This is why you're not likely to hear an Am6 (A C E F#) as an F#-7(b5) chord in first inversion - there is no minor 9 dissonance, and there are no harmonically-enforced notes like the fifth or major third that resonate with the F# as opposed to the F in the chord A C E F.

Going back to what I said about extensions, the definition of "acceptable dissonance" was a major 9 up from the triad, not the full tetrad to the seventh. This is because the seventh in a lot of cases IS a tension of sorts - it doesn't change the function of a chord and just adds more color. A major chord doesn't have a different function from a major 7, for example. When you're worried about the half step different between the E and the F of an F major 7 chord in first inversion, you shouldn't be. In fact, if that were "forbidden", you couldn't have ANY inversion of a major 7 chord, since every inversion would include that half step.

Half steps from chord tones to tensions is "unacceptable", but tensions to chord tones is often very cool. You'll hear plenty of guitar players/piano players voicing minor 9 chords with the 9 and the minor 3rd a half step away from each other. I personally like it when dominant seventh chords are voiced with the 13 and b7 near each other, and I'm also a fan of a major 7 chord with a #11 next to the fifth in the upper register, although YMMV.

[JimmyM]

As someone who has to read charts a lot on gigs, I always appreciate it if I don't have to be a musicologist with a master's degree to decipher a chord. Why would you write all these indecipherable things when it's so easy just to write F/A? It's an F chord and he wants an A as the bottom note. Don't make the poor shlub who has to play your genius charts think too hard. I don't have 15 minutes to crack your code at a rehearsal for a show with 5 or 6 acts on the bill.

[HaVIC5]

But it's so much more fun to write 7 paragraphs on something so simple!

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

No, it's not meaningless, it just shows a greater prevalence in convention. And that's what chord symbols are - convention. The more common it is, the more "correct" it is. And that's why calling the chord A C F "Amin(add b13 omit 5)" is "incorrect," it just isn't used anywhere. I'm not talking about the general habit of writing chords that use "add" and "omit 5", there's plenty, and a in a lot of situations, there's good reason to. Maybe not all the time in jazz (add chords are rare, since they're triadic and not tetradic), but definitely in other music. There just isn't ANY good reason here, since its way too much unnecessary information, and potentially obfuscates chord functionality. It's a basic F triad in inversion. You find me this specific notation for this specific chord on a lead sheet or a chord sheet and I'll rescind my point, but I contend that you wont for all the reasons I've given so far in this thread.



WARNING x2: The following will descend into the realm of utter music nerddom.

I'm going to have to disagree with you big time on the Fmaj7/A, there's plenty of "pop" (see, jazz, rock, all popular music) with major seven chords in inversion. I can think of several instances in the musical I'm playing right now of this very chord going back and forth from an Fmaj7/A to a Bb6 in the finale. It only "clashes" if you attempt to hear the A as a root, which is problematic for several reasons. Let me explain.

The basic definition of a tertian extension is a harmonic note that adds color to a chord's sound but does not interfere with its function. For example, the 11 on a minor seven chord will make it sound very colorful, but you can still hear it as a minor seven chord within a functional progression. The reason why this is, is because in order for a tension NOT to change the function of the chord, or create "unacceptable" dissonance, it must be a major 9th up from one of the notes in the basic triad. Consider your run of the mill major 7 chord. What's a major 9th away from the root? Duh, the 9. What about the 3rd? The #11. The 5th? The 13. And those are the extensions you're going to find on a major 7 chord. You won't find the 11, because it creates a minor 9 dissonance with the third, thus "confusing" the stable tonic or subdominant function of the chord. Even your bizzare tensions like #9 (favorite of Duke Ellington's) don't create minor 9th dissonances with any notes in the triad and are thus "acceptable" for the tonal purpose (albeit highly, highly dissonant).

The exception of course is dominant chords. Minor 9th dissonances are actually acceptable since the point of the dominant chord is to create tension to resolve to a tonic, and so the main qualm about minor 9 dissonance - that it confuses functionality - is moot (dominant chord's have a dissonant function). Getting too carried away though presents problems. You won't be able to have a natural 9 with a b9, or a #9, because it creates a non-tonal cluster of TWO minor 9 dissonances (root to b9 to natural 9, or natural 9 to #9 to natural 3). You also won't be able to have a natural 11, since the natural 11 is the target tonic note of the dominant chord, and including that dissonance will confuse a lot of things about the chord, and will make it not work.

Getting back on to the topic at hand, this is the reason why there can't USUALLY (exceptions of course) be an A minor triad with a b6. There is a minor 9 (technical minor 2nd) dissonance between the b6 and a note in the functional triad, the 5th. Minor chords have a stable tonic, or in some cases subdominant function, and so when the b9 dissonance is added into the mess, the ear rejects the notion that it is hearing a "stable" sound, and instead searches for another note to hear as the root.

It instead will hear "F", because, like I said before, there is a fifth between F and C. The 5th, being the 2nd partial in the overtone series, creates a foundation for the ear to hear the F more firmly. Oddly enough, this is FURTHER solidified by the A of all notes, because the major third is the 4th partial in the overtone series (the octave is number 3). This is why you're not likely to hear an Am6 (A C E F#) as an F#-7(b5) chord in first inversion - there is no minor 9 dissonance, and there are no harmonically-enforced notes like the fifth or major third that resonate with the F# as opposed to the F in the chord A C E F.

Going back to what I said about extensions, the definition of "acceptable dissonance" was a major 9 up from the triad, not the full tetrad to the seventh. This is because the seventh in a lot of cases IS a tension of sorts - it doesn't change the function of a chord and just adds more color. A major chord doesn't have a different function from a major 7, for example. When you're worried about the half step different between the E and the F of an F major 7 chord in first inversion, you shouldn't be. In fact, if that were "forbidden", you couldn't have ANY inversion of a major 7 chord, since every inversion would include that half step.

Half steps from chord tones to tensions is "unacceptable", but tensions to chord tones is often very cool. You'll hear plenty of guitar players/piano players voicing minor 9 chords with the 9 and the minor 3rd a half step away from each other. I personally like it when dominant seventh chords are voiced with the 13 and b7 near each other, and I'm also a fan of a major 7 chord with a #11 next to the fifth in the upper register, although YMMV.

Hey Dude,
Stop bashing on a very fine explanation about a specific question here.

First stay on track with the thread because you are WAY OFF-LINE here.
I never mention the minor 9 interval in my reply because it is a minor second between E and F in this situation. And I didn't talk about dominant chords either. So I wonder here who is writing paragraphs for nothing !!!

Second, any good piano player or guitar player will know what to do when they see a chord like FMaj7/A. They will take out one of the two notes (depending on the melody) or they will substitute the root for the 9th. This is basic technique for comping or writing.

So the main thing is that there is no such thing as an Amin(b6).
It is an F/A or Amin(#5) in the case of a fifth motion.

Please refer to my first post for all the details about it.

And to add to the original thread an Amin6 is also a F#min7(b5)/A.

Take care and good luck with your atempt to write good sounding music with the first inversion of FMaj7/A

Sylvain