Another mode thread....

[Chili]

hey, i've know all the modes for a while now, and i've basicly just been using them as scales, not really knowing any other way to use them. But from playing along to a song today i think i might have got an idea about how i could use them, just say i'm playing a song, The first chord a D minor chord, Then changes to a C major chord, thats a chord change right there right, so could i play the G dorian mode over that and it would work? and this is how it would work for most chord changes i'm assuming, like there could be 2 chord changes, or 3 or 4 etc, but will there always be one or more mode that i could use over these chord changes, and it would work?

[DocBop]

No. Sound like you've been hanging out with guitarist too much, they seen to always want to find a once scale fits whole tune.

So your chords are D-7 and C and your going to play G Dorian. Think about the notes and what sound the notes are implying that is the key. D-7 and C are from C major scale. G Dorian is from e F major scale. F major has one flat Bb. What is a C major scale with a Bb instead of a B??? Bb is the b7th so you have now changed your C major to a C Mixolydian. If that is the sound you want okay but if the melody has a B in it you will sound off. Now work thru G Dorian over your D-7 and see what you have done.

You have to look at the notes you get when you change modes or scales and the colors they are bringing.

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by Chili

hey, i've know all the modes for a while now, and i've basicly just been using them as scales, not really knowing any other way to use them. But from playing along to a song today i think i might have got an idea about how i could use them, just say i'm playing a song, The first chord a D minor chord, Then changes to a C major chord, thats a chord change right there right, so could i play the G dorian mode over that and it would work? and this is how it would work for most chord changes i'm assuming, like there could be 2 chord changes, or 3 or 4 etc, but will there always be one or more mode that i could use over these chord changes, and it would work?

is this the same 2 chords repeated over and over?? if there's a big cheesy Bbmaj7 chord making an appearance later down the line then G Dorian would probably the most obvious choice (in a lazy rock guitarist kind of way like DocBop said) though why you'd think of it as G Dorian as opposed to D Aeolian or C Mixolydian is beyond me

try to determine if the Dm is acting as a ii chord, or if it's acting as a vi chord... or if it's ambiguous... how the chords fit into the bigger picture of the piece will determine what you do with that B

you could of course, do nothing with the B and continue to leave some ambiguity.. you don't have to show your cards too early... then when some B's (or Bb's) appear, it could be the musical equivalent of a celestial revelation or something

[magnusdeus123]

I'm gonna wedge in my question here if no one minds ;

My practice of modes teaches me positions and versatality over the fretboard more than anything else i.e , after practicing for a while , I kinda realize that there are 2 ways to play the Lydian mode , or any time I'm playing something , I would know it's in Lydian based on my finger positioning and by understanding how the notes are placed .

In a musical sense , the modes kinda help me figure out how exactly the song is laid out in terms of chord progression . Consider the above example of the Dmin ..> Cmaj . In this case my mind would immediately react to it by thinking "hmm....thats the II to the I" or "VI to V" , and then I'd immediately fly over the the position from where I can play D Dorian perfectly , play some riff over it , roll from that riff onto the C Ionian , and do the same thing and take it from there .

My question is , is it the right way of looking at the modes . I know it's a very huge topic , and understanding it requires an open mind and a multi dimensional approach , but what else do the TalkBass vets have to say to what I've just written . Cheers .

[Chili]

hmm, i'm finding this mode thing pretty confusing, ok, using the Dmin, C maj example again, i could obvously the C ionian mode, but when the chord is D minor, i could use, F lydian or A aolian, then when it changes to C, i could use, E Phrygian or G Mixolydian?

[mutedeity]

The thing with modes are that they aren't about knowing seven diatonic scales and fitting every major and minor chord to one of them. You could play a minor chord over any given scale that has the degrees 1,b3 and 5 in it. That would include Melodic Minor, Harmonic Minor, Neopolitan 1 and the list goes on. You could even play it over a scale with a #2 and a M5 like Hungarian Major, for example since the #2 is enharmonic.

Modality isn't limted to the seven diatonic "modes". Modality is a function that gives each note of a scale a voicing of the intervalic order of those notes. For example if Ionian is the first voicing for the Major scale the second voicing will be Dorian and will start on the second degree of the scale, Phrygian will start on the third, Lydian on the 4th and so on.

The major chords will be on the 1st, 4th and 5th degrees of the Major scale and will have the modes Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian attached respectively. The minor chords will be on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th degrees and will have the modes Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian attached and the 7th degree will have a diminished chord and Locrian attached.

Also, Aeolian is the relative 6th of Ionian just as Ionian is the relative b3rd of Aeolian.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by Chili

hmm, i'm finding this mode thing pretty confusing, ok, using the Dmin, C maj example again, i could obvously the C ionian mode, but when the mode is D minor, i could use, F lydian or A aolian, then when it changes to C, i could use, E Phrygian or G Mixolydian?

Hypothetically if it is CMaj and dmin ,the modes could be C Mixolydian and D Aeolian.

To answer your question you could technically do that, given that C is in fact Ionian. In practice though you will find yourself following the chord progression or counterpoint whichever mode you choose to focus on.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Chili

hmm, i'm finding this mode thing pretty confusing, ok, using the Dmin, C maj example again, i could obvously the C ionian mode, but when the mode is D minor, i could use, F lydian or A aolian, then when it changes to C, i could use, E Phrygian or G Mixolydian?

I would to lessen the confusion focus mainly on diatonic use of modes. Especially on the sound of each mode for the chord family they relate too. Get the sound in your ear and what note(s) this is like the #4 in Lydian or the major 6 in Dorian. Once you have that down then using the modes non-diatonically will come easier.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Chili

hmm, i'm finding this mode thing pretty confusing, ok, using the Dmin, C maj example again, i could obvously the C ionian mode, but when the mode is D minor, i could use, F lydian or A aolian, then when it changes to C, i could use, E Phrygian or G Mixolydian?

Sort of, but you'd really be playing D dorian and C ionian. That's a nice trick to outline the extensions of the chord, but I think you need to focus on the lower reaches.

[Chili]

oh, for some reason i had it in my head you're meant to start modes on a differant note from the actual root, like the 5th or 3rd or something, so will the minor modes usually work over a minor chord, and the major modes will work over a major chord, but youll start on the root, but using a particular mode to get a particular sound? i'm still trying to remember which modes are minor and major, but i think i know know. give a little time to mess around with these and ill post again see if i'm close lol

I just wanted to tell everybody

I just received Wayne Krantz's book - An Improviser's OS.

This guy is straight ahead - I'm not going to tell anybody what's in it specifically cos that's Wayne's business and good on him for doing it.

But I do want to say that anybody who genuinely cares about how electric guitar/bass based music is set to evolve over the next century, and wants to be part of it, should get hold of this book.

This isn't an advert either I'm being genuine.

[dlloyd]

The way that modes are most often used in popular music is to correspond to a specific chord in a specific key. It's a way to learn the notes that surround the chord tones in a way that emphasises the strongest notes.

Take the key of C major.

You've got the following chords (basic tetrads):

Cmaj7
Dm7
Em7
Fmaj7
G7
Am7
Bm7b5

If you stay strictly in key, they correspond with the following modes:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

All of those are just made from the same notes: A, B, C, D, E, F, G... the difference is that the tonic, the centre of the harmony, changes... so while a C Ionian line is constructed from the same notes as a D Dorian line, they sound very different, because one resolves to C whereas the other resolves to D.

It also follows that a C Ionian line emphasises the other chord tones that you'd find in a Cmaj7 chord, while a D dorian line emphasises chord tones in a Dm7 chord.

The trick with the D dorian/F lydian sub is simply that Fmaj7 has all the same notes that a Dm9 has, except for the root. Once D is defined as the root, Fmaj7 says Dm9.

If you're at the point where you're figuring whether Dorian is major or minor, it's best to stick to learning that before you start trying to look at it in different ways.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by afromoose

I just wanted to tell everybody

I just received Wayne Krantz's book - An Improviser's OS.

This guy is straight ahead - I'm not going to tell anybody what's in it specifically cos that's Wayne's business and good on him for doing it.

But I do want to say that anybody who genuinely cares about how electric guitar/bass based music is set to evolve over the next century, and wants to be part of it, should get hold of this book.

This isn't an advert either I'm being genuine.

I've heard about this before. Is it that good?

Well I don't know how to describe this but I'll try..

His approach allows improvisers to continually provide themselves with a new basis which hasn't been touched before, whilst always being able to stay on the same page musically. I wish I had an audio clip of some of his stuff to illustrate this - but I've got a track called 'Infinity Split' from a local Jazz Festival and it absolutely blew me away when I first heard it. I'd just not heard things move that quickly amongst the players with no changes written down, no pre-arranged composition.

I don't think Wayne Krantz's method is for the faint-hearted, but for anybody who wants to discover their own voice on their instrument, or wants to be able to improvise in this manner, simply never having to go over the same material, then I think this book is groundbreaking.

It beats trying to copy Vic Wooten anyway. Ouch! Sorry for that comment. Please nobody stone me!!

[Chili]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

The way that modes are most often used in popular music is to correspond to a specific chord in a specific key. It's a way to learn the notes that surround the chord tones in a way that emphasises the strongest notes.

Take the key of C major.

You've got the following chords (basic tetrads):

Cmaj7
Dm7
Em7
Fmaj7
G7
Am7
Bm7b5

If you stay strictly in key, they correspond with the following modes:

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

All of those are just made from the same notes: A, B, C, D, E, F, G... the difference is that the tonic, the centre of the harmony, changes... so while a C Ionian line is constructed from the same notes as a D Dorian line, they sound very different, because one resolves to C whereas the other resolves to D.

It also follows that a C Ionian line emphasises the other chord tones that you'd find in a Cmaj7 chord, while a D dorian line emphasises chord tones in a Dm7 chord.

The trick with the D dorian/F lydian sub is simply that Fmaj7 has all the same notes that a Dm9 has, except for the root. Once D is defined as the root, Fmaj7 says Dm9.

If you're at the point where you're figuring whether Dorian is major or minor, it's best to stick to learning that before you start trying to look at it in different ways.

i know that dorian is minor, and aolian, and mixolydian is major etc, i'm still abit unclear on 1 or 2 of the modes, i'll figure out which one is major or minor, then the next day get mixed up again, but i almost have it memorized now.

But what you sed there is starting to make sense to me, i just need to put it into practice in someway.

its late, so i'll come back to this tommorow.

[magnusdeus123]

Chili my friend , I think I've just understood what your problem is ;

Your looking at the modes as if their a set of Minor modes and Major modes . That is all wrong !!! Sure , the Dorian and Aeolian are Minors , and the Ionian and Lydian are Majors , but if you look at them that way , your stuck in this weird mentality which will never allow you to actually understand their core .

You've to understand modes in terms of tonalities , and then figure out HOW the chords relate to them , not the other way round....

Lets take the overabused Key of C

Notes in C : C D E F G A B

Ionian : C D E F G A B
Dorian : D E F G A B C
Phyrgian : E F G A B C D
Lydian : F G A B C D E
Mixolydian : G A B C D E F
Aeolian : A B C D E F G
Locrian : B C D E F G A

Hopefully you know uptill there . You know that modes are taking the major scale ( which is actually Ionian) , and deriving the scale starting on a different root , to get a different tonality .

Now this is the part which might be confusing you , but I'm not sure , check it out anyways .

You need to understand WHY we say the Dorian can relate to a Minor chord and why Lydian to a major . For that you need to go back to how chords are formed .

Ionian : C D E F G A B

We'll make a tonic chord from this , so that is the 1st,3rd,5th,7th .

Ionian (Chord) : C E G B

So you see , CEGB is a CMaj7 chord . Do the same on the other modes .

Dorian : D F A C

DFAC is a DMin7 because a Dmaj would be DF#AC# .

Like that you continue deriving chords from the scales and you realize WHY those modes are termed as minor or major . After that , you pretty much know why you would use a mode in that location when playing and chord and all that .

[ZonGuy]

My $0.02 worth.

Music theory makes up for the deficiencies in our ear training.

I studied jazz music theory hard in night college and then went out and practiced it on Real Book jazz gigs for several years until it became second nature.

Having the fingering of the modes under the fingers allows us to fly when walking a bass line or soloing. The II V I or whatever becomes second nature and we intuitively play what fits. Then, when we get really good, like Charlie Parker said, we can forget music theory, we longer need that crutch. We automatically hear what notes fit in that II V 1.

I was playing along with some vintage motown tonight and I was pleasantly suprised how many nice jazz progressions sneaked into the soul songs.

My first bass instructor, teaching me how to create walking bass lines, started me out with "Autumn Leaves". Once you got that under your fingers, you have all 7 major scale diatonic modes in your head. An excellent exercise if you havent already mastered it. It took me about two months before it really clicked, then whammo, I had it.

At some point everybody needs to sit down and work this stuff out on paper, understand it, then absorb it into their playing until it becomes a reflex rather than something you think about every note. Learning ear training is an excellent parallel exercise.

So, spend a few years getting the modes (all 7 major diatonic, plus some proficiency with harmonic and melodic, the dominant 7ths, augmented, dimished and pentatonic and you pretty have it all.)

Learn it, hear it , get it in your fingers - and then forget it.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by ZonGuy

My $0.02 worth.

Music theory makes up for the deficiencies in our ear training.

I studied jazz music theory hard in night college and then went out and practiced it on Real Book jazz gigs for several years until it became second nature.

Having the fingering of the modes under the fingers allows us to fly when walking a bass line or soloing. The II V I or whatever becomes second nature and we intuitively play what fits. Then, when we get really good, like Charlie Parker said, we can forget music theory, we longer need that crutch. We automatically hear what notes fit in that II V 1.

I was playing along with some vintage motown tonight and I was pleasantly suprised how many nice jazz progressions sneaked into the soul songs.

My first bass instructor, teaching me how to create walking bass lines, started me out with "Autumn Leaves". Once you got that under your fingers, you have all 7 major scale diatonic modes in your head. An excellent exercise if you havent already mastered it. It took me about two months before it really clicked, then whammo, I had it.

At some point everybody needs to sit down and work this stuff out on paper, understand it, then absorb it into their playing until it becomes a reflex rather than something you think about every note. Learning ear training is an excellent parallel exercise.

So, spend a few years getting the modes (all 7 major diatonic, plus some proficiency with harmonic and melodic, the dominant 7ths, augmented, dimished and pentatonic and you pretty have it all.)

Learn it, hear it , get it in your fingers - and then forget it.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I would say though that your post could on the surface appear to undervalue the importance of knowing theory in the first place. I'm pretty sure that's not what you are doing myself, but there are definitely those that might see it and think of it as an excuse to not bother with theory.

The thing is that if you don't have theoretical knowledge in the first place you don't have the analytical tools you need to understand what you are doing in an intellectual sense. The problem is that when people don't have the benefit of analysis they tend to be limited by their sense of what sounds "right" which to the untrained is usually the basic diatonic forumlas. This is not always the case, but more often than not it is true.

I would disagree with the notion of forgetting theory altogether, theory is an excellent tool for analysing and for creating conceptual ideas for composition and improvisation. I think that neither a well trained ear or a good theoretical knowledge base are more or less important than the other. I also don't completely agree that theory necessarily is a crutch for a lack of ear training. I think they are both their own entity and each has their own application.

As far as modality goes, it doesn't end with knowing Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. It's about understanding the relationships between them. This applies to any given scale you can come up with. Seven notes = seven modes or six notes = six modes and so on and so on.

I would reitterate what magnusdeus123 said in his last post as well.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

I would disagree with the notion of forgetting theory altogether, theory is an excellent tool for analysing and for creating conceptual ideas for composition and improvisation. I think that neither a well trained ear or a good theoretical knowledge base are more or less important than the other. I also don't completely agree that theory necessarily is a crutch for a lack of ear training. I think they are both their own entity and each has their own application.

I don't thing ZonGuy means forget using theory, he is talking practice till it's second nature. Then when playing you don't have to think theory whatever you hear in your head can come out. That's how the greats practice they work on common chords, chord progressions, Jazz standards in all keys, all styles over and over so when they play there is little they haven't worked on, listened to, and internalized. Also why they say it takes about ten years to become a Jazz musician.

[mutedeity]

I don't think he meant that either. I was making the point because I do think some might interpret what he said that way.