Another question about modes.

[Exophysical]

In my recent quest to learn more theory I was goofing around in "A" in what a page I printed off of the net calls "Mode 3" of the pentatonic scale. I discovered that when I dropped down a step from my lowest "A" to a "G" I could play in in pentatonic major to the same riff, and then down to the E and I could play in Pentatonic minor. I got pretty stoked about it cause it realy kept everything nice and familiar while going up and down the fret board. So then I tryed doing it with a regular major scale and I couldnt figure out which mode I would go to if I dropped down to my 7th so I gave up and figured I'd ask the pro's.

So my question is how can I apply this to the regular major and other scales? I didnt get any further than trying to figure out what to play if I was using my 7th as a root note so maby the rest of them are easyer to figure out but if someone could spell it out for me that would be great.

[MarkTAW]

Google:

Ionian (mode built on first scale degree)
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Myxolydian
Aeolian
Locrian (mode built on seventh scale degree)

The question is, though, what do you do with this knowledge once you have it?

[Exophysical]

Yeah, see I know that already but locrian didnt seem to be working properly when I tryed it. When I was doing it in pentatonic 3 I could drop down to g major pentatonic or e minor pretty much regardless of where the chord progression was going, it was pretty much the same as improvising in A where the rest of the band was playing just my root was in a different place. It was still using in the same intervals. trying to use locrian on the 7th deffinatly didnt seem to work the same way.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Exophysical

Yeah, see I know that already but locrian didnt seem to be working properly when I tryed it. When I was doing it in pentatonic 3 I could drop down to g major pentatonic or e minor pretty much regardless of where the chord progression was going,

Having a little problem understanding what you are asking. OK understand G major pentatonic and E minor pentatonic have the same notes. And yes if the song is in the key of G you can play a G major pentatonic riff over the entire song and whatever chord progression the song takes your G major pentatonic riff will be OK. Normally works best if over the G chord you use the G major pentatonic and when the song moves to the C chord you use the C major pentatonic for your bass riff, but, sticking with G major pentatonic over the entire song will work -- because the song's key is G thus the tonal center is G and that is why the G major pentatonic works over the entire song.

..... it was pretty much the same as improvising in A where the rest of the band was playing just my root was in a different place.

Yes move the pentatonic pattern to another root location - song now in C move the pentatonic scale pattern to the 4th string 8th fret and when the song moves to the F chord move to the 3rd string 8th fret -- OK yes that's correct.

It was still using in the same intervals. trying to use locrian on the 7th deffinatly didnt seem to work the same way.

Lost you here, sorry. Have no idea what you are doing. How did Locrian come into the picture? Re-phrase and we can try again.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Exophysical

Yeah, see I know that already but locrian didnt seem to be working properly when I tryed it. When I was doing it in pentatonic 3 I could drop down to g major pentatonic or e minor pretty much regardless of where the chord progression was going, it was pretty much the same as improvising in A where the rest of the band was playing just my root was in a different place. It was still using in the same intervals. trying to use locrian on the 7th deffinatly didnt seem to work the same way.

Locrian by its nature is pretty unstable, it's best used over a tune written for it or as a two chord in minor. I use it quite frequently as a way to accent a 9th over a dominant chord. Play locrian starting on the 3rd of a 7th chord. I would technically be in Mixolydian if someone were analyzing what I was doing I guess, but it's another way of thinking, any chord tones I hit I'd be thinking m7-5. You can do the same and emphasize the 6th degree in dorian. Start on 6th degree of dorian. All this is HIGHLY subtle, just another way of thinking to change up playing a bit.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Exophysical

In my recent quest to learn more theory I was goofing around in "A" in what a page I printed off of the net calls "Mode 3" of the pentatonic scale. I discovered that when I dropped down a step from my lowest "A" to a "G" I could play in in pentatonic major to the same riff, and then down to the E and I could play in Pentatonic minor. I got pretty stoked about it cause it realy kept everything nice and familiar while going up and down the fret board. So then I tryed doing it with a regular major scale and I couldnt figure out which mode I would go to if I dropped down to my 7th so I gave up and figured I'd ask the pro's.

So my question is how can I apply this to the regular major and other scales? I didnt get any further than trying to figure out what to play if I was using my 7th as a root note so maby the rest of them are easyer to figure out but if someone could spell it out for me that would be great.

It is so hard to explain harmony over the net in a forum but I'll try to make it simple and easy to understand.

What you did with your mode iii was playing a G maj pent or E min pent starting from A that is a note in the scale. This mode could be use on a A7 sus4 if you know what it means. If you don't tell us.

A G major pentatonic scale is a short version of a G major scale without the 2 half steps in it. So it doesn't resolve in traditional harmony because of that. So 2 major pentatonics can be use over a G major chord: G and D. If the chord function as a fourth mode or lydian you can use the A maj penta as well to complete the lydian color. Try it and tell if you get it.

The same is true with the minor pentatonic on dorian chords.

Sly

[Exophysical]

What I'm asking is if I am playing in a regular A major scale rather than pentatonic and I move down a tone to the seventh which mode would I use to keep playing in the original key from the 7th position? My assumption was that I would use the 7th mode to play in the key of A if I was using G as my low note, thus I used locrian which didnt work. So I'm wondering if I dont match the mode number to coresponding interval to use different positions to play in my original key how can I make this work? The reason I want to know this is because my discovery with the pentatonic scales made it realy easy to keep track of what notes I could use when I would move out of the original scale position. Hope that makes sense, I've played guitar for a long time so I understand harmony fairly well, just never though of using modes in this way befor.

[mambo4]

One thing about pentatonic scales is that they don't contain any half steps. they are just whole steps and thirds.

In practice, this means that if you are playing over a riff or chord that is based on the root of that pentatonic scale, you can pretty much start with any note and sound good. This is because , within a pentatonic scale,you are only playing either chord tones or tones that are reasonably consonant with the chord. That is why it is sometimes said that a pentatonic scale contains no "avoid notes"

In contrast, the major scale (and its various modes ) do include those half-step intervals. This means that if you begin improvising over a chord/riff using the major scale (or modes) you are throwing in a few more notes that are more likely to sound dissonant against the main chord/riff. Depending on the chord,the diatonic modes will contain one or more "avoid notes" , and must be used with more care than the pentatonics.

There are plenty of resources out there with lists of which modes can be used with which chords.

However, it is much more effective to focus on learning the ins and outs of chord construction and focus on developing lines based on chord tones.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Exophysical

if I am playing in a regular A major scale ..and I move down a tone to the seventh which mode would I use to keep playing in the original key from the 7th position? My assumption was that I would use the 7th mode to play in the key of A if I was using G as my low note, thus I used locrian which didnt work. .

i think I see the problem. You are mistaken about the 7th of A major being G. It is G# (A major contains no G natural)
G# locrian and A major are enharmonic (the same key)
G locrian and A major are not, in fact it is as far away form A major as you can get.

G natural might appropriately be called the Flat 7th of A..but that would imply that you are not in the key of A major.

From what you described earlier, (A pentatonic "3rd mode", G major pentatonic, Eminor pentatonic) It sounds like you are actually in the key of G major, which would make Dorian appropriate scale for A...

try messing around with the various modes of G major in your situation and see what you get.

[251]

There is no 7th in a Pentatonic scale. G is not the 7th of A. G# is the 7th of A.

It isn't necessary for you to figure this out for yourself. JS Bach laid it all out for us quite a while ago. Is there a music school near you? It sounds like you are ready for some lessons.

If there is no music school nearby look at; http://wheatsbassbook.org/ You will find some stuff that doesn't interest you & answers to most of your other questions.

[Exophysical]

Originally Posted by mambo4

i think I see the problem. You are mistaken about the 7th of A major being G. It is G# (A major contains no G natural)
G# locrian and A major are enharmonic (the same key)
G locrian and A major are not, in fact it is as far away form A major as you can get.

G natural might appropriately be called the Flat 7th of A..but that would imply that you are not in the key of A major.

From what you described earlier, (A pentatonic "3rd mode", G major pentatonic, Eminor pentatonic) It sounds like you are actually in the key of G major, which would make Dorian appropriate scale for A...

try messing around with the various modes of G major in your situation and see what you get.

Hey thanks mambo, that just answered my question and I now see where my brain fart was. Just thinking about it I'm pretty sure I could use the locrian scale figure in G# to play in A major. I'll try it out later and I'll probably be back with more questions.

[Danny Fox]

Originally Posted by Exophysical

Hey thanks mambo, that just answered my question and I now see where my brain fart was. Just thinking about it I'm pretty sure I could use the locrian scale figure in G# to play in A major. I'll try it out later and I'll probably be back with more questions.

That's because G# Locrian is the 7th mode of A major.