Any tips? Drummer is throwing me off

Les Izmor · #1 04-03-2008, 09:10 PM

I jammed with a drummer last night who I clicked with very naturally, except for when we'd break it down and let him have a few bars, he'd turn the beat around on purpose, and I'd end up adding a beat and coming in late..... so, does anyone have any suggestions on how to practice for this situation at home with a metronome?

scottmabe · #2 04-03-2008, 09:25 PM

Les, I don't know how helpful it will be ...but....

When he is on his curving twisting tangent, see if you can hear when HIS downbeat is. When you come in ..if its so off that it hurts,then he will realize what he is doing to you....

But then I have jammed with people who were jamming as part of therapy.....talk about "squirrelling"

()smoke() · #3 04-03-2008, 09:34 PM

when you do that, add a beat the next bar as well, then look at him like ****? quit messing up*

kesslari · #4 04-03-2008, 09:38 PM

Count!

It can be fun to get used to holding steady while people turn the beat around.
In Indian music it's an art form...

scottmabe · #5 04-03-2008, 09:38 PM

hahaha smoke!!! Ive done that too....

Last drummer was in-capable of playing the same thing twice...UGGHHH

DocBop · #6 04-03-2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kesslari

Count!

It can be fun to get used to holding steady while people turn the beat around.
In Indian music it's an art form...

+1 Sometimes counting is the only answer. Plus if you counting and the drummer knows it, it may make him start thinking.

Les Izmor · #7 04-03-2008, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kesslari

Count!

I must admit, I don't count much when improvising at a jam session, especially when it's a groove I've initiated.

What I'm asking for is any techniques or practice methods that help develop not being pulled by a turned around beat. Should I play with the metronome on 2 and 4 and then shift the phrase from the down beat to the 2, then get off it in time to come back in on the one?

Maybe some suggestions of rock or funk tunes where the drummer turns the beat around?

funkydanbass · #8 04-03-2008, 10:20 PM

Being able to maintain your internal pulse, and not being thrown by syncopated accents is the goal. There's no harm in counting through these kinds of sections. Or maintaining the groove in your head by singing it.

Personally, you could practice playing music that doesn't rely on down beats. I've found that playing Afro Cuban grooves has really helped me to feel beat 1 and maintain a pulse through out fairly syncopated grooves.

That said, most good drummers can mess with time more than I can. For performance reasons I would ask him to musically cue the band back in with a straighter groove or 2 or 4 beats of fill that is obviously in 4/4 (or the original time signature).

I wouldn't encourage restricting the drummers creativity, (like some of the posts have suggested), but I would certainly suggest he be a helpful player when needed.

elpezpr · #9 04-03-2008, 10:28 PM

When something like this happens to me I politely ask the drummer to do the part while I count out loud. If I'm wrong it helps me find the beat and if he's wrong he can correct it.

Chris Breese · #10 04-03-2008, 10:31 PM

All the above is great advice!

I would just say to the drummer, "Wow, man, your kicking my ass with that stuff! Can you give me some kind of cue until I can get a clue to your feel?" Make him feel that you want him and the band to sound good and not just you.

Just be respectful and give compliments and encouragment. I jam with a drummer that can do that and if I don't stay focused and, yes, count, then I just get lost. Sometimes we both get lost!! So what I do is just stop playing and lay back and give him the spotlight until I hear something familiar and jump back in. I usually give the 'WOW, MAN!' look afterward and it turns out to be fun.

If the dude is being a real tool, then count your ass off and don't loose him. Maybe that will earn you some respect.

crazyguy832 · #11 04-03-2008, 10:39 PM

Sounds like you're the one with the problem here (no offense), not the drummer.

Just count it (out loud if you need to). If the drummer's any good, he'll come back on the original "1". If he doesn't, then the problem is him and not you.

As far as practicing... if you can, get a drum machine. 4 bars straight 4/4, turn around for 4 bars, repeat. The longer sections means you'll be able to get comfortable within each rhythm and prepare yourself for the change.

Phil Smith · #12 04-03-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Izmor

I jammed with a drummer last night who I clicked with very naturally, except for when we'd break it down and let him have a few bars, he'd turn the beat around on purpose, and I'd end up adding a beat and coming in late..... so, does anyone have any suggestions on how to practice for this situation at home with a metronome?

If the drummer is throwing you off you need to get more adept at knowing where the time is or better yet where the 1 is. If he's making a mistake or delibrately turning the beat around one can detect that i.e. where does the kick fall? Where does the snare fall? How is this different from where it was falling before? Is the pulse still the same or is it different?

jschwalls · #13 04-03-2008, 11:54 PM

I informed my drummer years ago that I would probably not be paying attention to him and really would appreciate him to set up the 1 when he was finished doodling on drums. It is the right thing to do especially live.. there are beers to drink and girls to talk to.. I personally could care less about counting all 128 bars of his solo...I do not do solos for these same reasons... and also i have never found a chick or beer

that really wanted to hear anything other than maybe a 2 bar solo anyway.

Deacon_Blues · #14 04-04-2008, 01:23 AM

I know a couple of drummers that can make anyone lose the beat when they solo... There are at least 3 ways to know when to come in again after one of those solos:

1. Count
2. Tell the drummer to count in again in the end of the solo, or to
3. do a standard fill in the end to make it clear for everyone when to come in again.

/DB

improvpwnd · #15 04-04-2008, 02:10 AM

If he isn't 'messing up,' just accenting subdivisions in odd areas, then count and it shouldn't be a problem. Time is part of playing music, am I wrong?

Les Izmor · #16 04-04-2008, 12:00 PM

Thanks for all the general suggestions. I'll have to try counting next time. To clarify, I'm not a novice and have quite a bit of experience improvising, as well as playing with a band, rehearsing and getting tight, etc. This was a one off jam, not a rehearsal, so I couldn't work it out ahead of time or after the fact. We were improvising and just moved on after each tune. There was more than one "wow" moment where we all stopped together, or intuitively accented a beat. So, what I'm getting at here is really FINE TUNING. I was looking for a specific method to strengthen one's internal beat. Maybe I should have posted in the "technique" forum?

tdogg · #17 04-04-2008, 12:09 PM

i used to be a in a band that used modulating time signatures and wierd counts. sometimes we would do a break down where the drummer would switch to 6/8 tim and i would continue in 4/4 and we would meet up every 12th 8th note. ( i think i explained that correctly). anyways, if i felt myself getting lost i would turn away from the drummer, close my eyes and count. it almost always worked. almost. if this doesnt work and the drummer is being lame-o, they sell remote controlled doggy shock collars for decent prices now.

jeromebass · #18 04-04-2008, 01:09 PM

In the band I am in now, I will purposely go into 5/4 while the drums are in 4/4. The guitarist will do long feedbacks. I make sure to hit the 1 beat very strongly to get the 5/4 feel. the drummer friggin loves it. After 4 measures of 5/4 the drummer will have played 5 measures of 4/4. Once the pattern is done, the guitarist immediately jumps on a phat solo in 4/4 and I start playing the groove with the drums.

...good times

Chris Breese · #19 04-04-2008, 03:13 PM

That sounds cool. I would love to hear what that sounds like. The band I'm in does pretty much everything in 4/4...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeromebass

In the band I am in now, I will purposely go into 5/4 while the drums are in 4/4. The guitarist will do long feedbacks. I make sure to hit the 1 beat very strongly to get the 5/4 feel. the drummer friggin loves it. After 4 measures of 5/4 the drummer will have played 5 measures of 4/4. Once the pattern is done, the guitarist immediately jumps on a phat solo in 4/4 and I start playing the groove with the drums.

...good times

tZer · #20 04-04-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kesslari

Count!

It can be fun to get used to holding steady while people turn the beat around.
In Indian music it's an art form...

+1 with a bullet.

Turning the beat around and purposefully manipulating the feel is one of the best ways to make a jam really interesting and challenging! Look at each session as a game - the goal, always know where ONE is not matter how convoluted the beat gets.

You can turn the tables on him too. Generate an accent pattern that de-emphasizes ONE and makes 2 sound like your down beat - or toss a triplet pattern or mix in a 3/4 groove to a 4/4 beat - but don't YOU lose track of where ONE really is...

Messing with the "expected" groove and making it complicated for a bit - but then bringing it back around to a rock-solid ONE is a great way to add excitement and interest to an otherwise predictable jam.