Anyone ever have this happen?

[Visirale]

I was just at a jazz camp and the director for my ensemble had us play music he had composed. It was all right for the most part, just standard 12 bar blues. In the music he had written out, he had a lot of A naturals during the Bb7 chords. I asked him about it and he said they added "flavor", but told all the other instruments to avoid the A natural. The Ab felt a lot better, since it's in the chord... the A natural just sounded bad.

Is it common to hit the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord? Like I said... it sounded really bad to me.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

When you find the "7" suffix alone, it means that it's a major chord with a flattened seventh. Hence, B7 is spelled B-D#-F#-A natural. For a major seventh chord, the suffix is "Maj7" or "M7" or a triangle. Ab (it should be called G#) isn't present in a B7 chord, but you can find it in the B mixolydian scale: B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B.

Hope this helps.

[Correlli]

You can do this to emphasize the next chord change. So if the next change was Eb, the less stable tones will 'bring it out'. that might explain the "sounds bad" bit.

[Visirale]

Originally Posted by Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

When you find the "7" suffix alone, it means that it's a major chord with a flattened seventh. Hence, B7 is spelled B-D#-F#-A natural. For a major seventh chord, the suffix is "Maj7" or "M7" or a triangle. Ab (it should be called G#) isn't present in a B7 chord, but you can find it in the B mixolydian scale: B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B.

Hope this helps.

Haha, I knew this. I'm asking if it's ok to play a Maj 7 in a regular 7 chord.

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by Visirale

I was just at a jazz camp and the director for my ensemble had us play music he had composed. It was all right for the most part, just standard 12 bar blues. In the music he had written out, he had a lot of A naturals during the B7 chords. I asked him about it and he said they added "flavor", but told all the other instruments to avoid the A natural. The Ab felt a lot better, since it's in the chord... the A natural just sounded bad.

Is it common to hit the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord? Like I said... it sounded really bad to me.

Visirale,
A B7 chord is spelled: B D# F# A
A B7 Maj.7 is spelled: B D# F# A#

The A natural is the 7th in the B7 chord. In other word, it is in the chord. It probably did sound a little odd; especially if you were sitting on it.

The Ab/G# that sounded better to you is the 6th degree of the B Mixolydian mode. By playing G# in the bass, you were probably hearing the chord as: G# B D# F# (with no A, since you were the only one that was supposed to be playing it). You were hearing a G#m7 chord.

What key was the tune in?

Joe

[Visirale]

Oh, and for reference, I meant Bb, not B.

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by Visirale

Oh, and for reference, I meant Bb, not B.

[Visirale]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Kid

Hahahha, I know, it makes a big difference. I really should proof read my posts when they deal with music theory.

I'm sorry .

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Originally Posted by Visirale

I'm asking if it's ok to play a Maj 7 in a regular 7 chord.
Oh, and for reference, I meant Bb, not B.

OK. That's different. I don't think it will sound fine unless you use it as a quick passing note to reach the fundamental (Ab-A natural-Bb).

[KuMBye YamALaWd]

Originally Posted by Visirale

I was just at a jazz camp and the director for my ensemble had us play music he had composed. It was all right for the most part, just standard 12 bar blues. In the music he had written out, he had a lot of A naturals during the Bb7 chords. I asked him about it and he said they added "flavor", but told all the other instruments to avoid the A natural. The Ab felt a lot better, since it's in the chord... the A natural just sounded bad.

Is it common to hit the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord? Like I said... it sounded really bad to me.

No, it's NOT common to play the Major 7 on a dominant 7 chord...

It would add "flavour", yes it could be used as a color tone....a Highly Dissonant colour tone...in a Bb7 chord, the A natural would clash violently with Ab (unless there's a melodic sequence like Ab-A-Bb )

...this is a High School band, right?
My guess is that he director effed up and was trying to not let on


..

[Visirale]

He's has played with some very big groups, most noteworthy being the tempations. It was a highschool band but he was a guess director... god the CD is going to sound awful. He treated me like an idiot when I asked why he had the bass hitting the major 7s in a dominan chord.

Haha, he said he'd beat me if I played the regular 7.

[Correlli]

In traditional blues music, 3rd, 5th, and 7th tones are microtonally 'bent'. perhaps that's the type of effect the director was trying to acheive?

[Bassist4Life]

Hmmmm. Let me think this one out...

Bb7 chord: Bb D F Ab

The director wants an A in the bass while the group plays a Bb7 chord, right?

Now the chord is spelled: A / Bb D F Ab

Yeah, that would sound a bit strange. I'm not sure how to make sense out of that. I guess we could do some enharmonic spellings and try some different voicings...

Did other people in the group play the Ab? If not, perhaps the B Maj.7 chord was a reharminization.

Another thought is that the director made a mistake and was trying to save face.

Joe

[Visirale]

I don't know if I stressed this enough, but this was a piece that the director composed and has had published... so he was a bit anal about it.

Yeah it sounded super weird... and like I said, a tenor sax player asked him the same question that I did and he was like "No, you need to stay on the Ab. The bass can get away with playing the A natural, but in the higher registers it doesn't work."

[Correlli]

This could be a test to see if you'll do what you're told. He's the director and worked for the Tempations, and you basicly know nothing. So I don't blame him for getting "anal". I wouldn't argue (with him) about it to much. Just do what he wants, and move on. It really doesn't matter if it sounds bad to you, or if you don't like it. It could be that you would do things differently if you were in he's position.

[HaVIC5]

Yeah it sounded super weird... and like I said, a tenor sax player asked him the same question that I did and he was like "No, you need to stay on the Ab. The bass can get away with playing the A natural, but in the higher registers it doesn't work."

If anything, it would be the opposite. If you have a steady dominant foundation on the tonic, you can really just go off on any note melodically and make it work, even an A on a Bb7. However, you really can't play an A in the bass, unless its part of a chromaticism in a walking line, which is entirely possible. Context is everything.

[Freddels]

It's also in the bebop scale. So for the Bb7 chord the bebop scale would be: Bb C D Eb F G Ab A Bb

[Audiophage]

Originally Posted by Visirale

The bass can get away with playing the A natural, but in the higher registers it doesn't work."

If the bass is completely inaudible in the mix, yeah. I could see getting away with A natural if it was a passing tone and not on a beat...

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by Freddels

It's also in the bebop scale. So for the Bb7 chord the bebop scale would be: Bb C D Eb F G Ab A Bb

True, but isn't it used as more of a passing tone? I like the post that "context is everything". Harmony is functional. What key was the tune in?

Joe

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

True, but isn't it used as more of a passing tone? I like the post that "context is everything". Harmony is functional. What key was the tune in?

Joe

Sure. But I guess every note that is in b/w where you are and the target note is a passing tone <G>.

The A in the Bb bebop scale isn't meant to be emphasized so just hanging on that note doesn't usually work (but can depending on the music).