Anyone have a "block" with music theory?

[jaywa]

I have played bass for 28 years and I have gotten pretty good at it but I have never been able to get the whole music theory thing. I have tried reading several different books on it but I always get about three pages into it and then it just starts to make my head hurt and I give up.

Most of the rest of my game is solid: I can jam fine, am told I have great time and feel, and I can even read sheet music passably, but this inability to "get" theory is really keeping me from progressing, especially into genres where you have to have that stuff down cold. For example I have been turning down jazz gigs because I would be a total disaster walking from charts, and plugging that hole in my skill set is one of my goals for 09.

Has anyone else struggled with learning music theory (and especially translating it to bass)? What finally made the light go on for you and can you suggest some way to get through it?

TIA

[Chrispurchase]

I struggled for quite a while and I still do, but have stuck with it and it's starting to pay off. I've found that if i don't stress or think to hard about it, as lots of it is logical and straight forward but i tended to over think it and made it much more complicated than what it actually is.

One thing that has helped me is transcribing and then the analyzing a song that i like, so looking at the harmony, melody and rhythm of the song and then looking at what the bass player has played over it and working out why they have done what they have. I guess it's just working backwards in a sense.

[Daveelvy]

I studied really hard to get a grounding in music theory. My teachers were really good, but it took quite a while after I finished my studies to really understand it all. One of the best things you can do is learn to play other instruments. Bass is the only instrument I can claim to be any good on, but I also sing, play guitar and piano (really, really badly!!). Working on the theory that I already knew, singing gave me a better understanding of melody, and I always find I play more melodically when I'm singing at the same time. Guitar opened up my understanding of scales, chords and what goes into their construction. Piano kind of puts the whole lot together.

[Bassworm]

I've always really struggled with it, particularly chord theory which sails right over my head without stopping. I've been playing bass guitar (Self-taught) since the 70s without knowing any more than the most basic rudiments of theory. Recently I took up double bass and saw this as an opportunity to get a good grounding in music theory at the same time, but despite my bass teacher's best efforts I still don't entirely get it, and try to play everything intuitively. Probably because that's how I've learned every piece I've played for the 30-something years.
Oddly, since I started learning the upright I've learned to sight read for the first time in my life, so my teacher is definitely doing something right. Hopefully she'll eventually beat some theory into my head. But to be fair, I've managed without it for so long, playing a mixture of musical genres that I sometimes wonder how much of a difference it would ultimately make to my playing.

[PoundinThunder]

i have had problems with it forever. i even dropped out of college because they were forcing it down my throat. and i want even a music student. i understood the basic stuff but i found out that i already knew some other more technical stuff but i just had other ways of looking st it. theory was making me not like music. and i thought that was impossible. and nothing is worth me losing my love for music so i simply stopped going. i will figure it out sometime, maybe not perfectly formal, but as long as i have my instrument, i will be happy. for she is the best teacher i have ever had. good luck with your goal!

[BassChuck]

It's difficult for most people to learn something if there is no application of the knowledge. Instead of trying to 'learn theory' for the sake of knowing something that might later be of use, get a project that incorporates learning theory.

Some 'starter' ideas:

1.) Take a simple melody, best if you compose it, but anything simple and folksy will do. Harmonize it 3 different ways, one for children to sing, one for a dance band (you pick the era), and one for a jazz trio to play.

2.) Harmonize a major scale, at least 3 different ways. One do it in the key of the scale (use harmonies from the key of C for the C scale) but don't just do I ii iii IV V vi viii, mix it up. Try harmonizing your C major scale, but use harmonies from A minor. Try harmonizing C major scale but use harmonies from Bb major (or anyother key).

3.) Take the one example from #1 and arrange it for String Quartet, then Brass Quartet, then Saxophone Quintet. This will teach you a lot about instrumental transpositions and ranges.

4.) Learn to play stuff from #2 on keyboard. Books could be written on the advantages you'll get from that.

5.) As you study your theory text, have your bass handy and do your best to play the examples on your bass and see what that shows you.

Good luck. The more you learn, the easier it is to learn whats next.

BassChuck:

These all sound like great suggestions, and I'm going to try them. All I need is a human to walk me through it the first time!

Seriously though, I have trouble with theory as well. I'm definitely a learn-by-doing person. What helps me is having a teacher that uses everyday language to explain things rather than trying to sound like a college proffessor.

[skeptikal]

My theory lessons consist of my bass player buddy (who plays drums also) saying "Play in (insert key here) today".

He sits down on his kit and just does something standard 4/4 time or whatever and I jam out in that specific key. It helps learn what notes I can play in what key. Yesterday was C Minor (played in D)

[jaywa]

Great suggestions... a lot of times I wind up playing with guitarists and I know they're playing the wrong type of chord (and usually they do too), and they ask me what the right chord is and all I can say is, "well it's a C on bass but as far as what KIND of C, you'll have to figure that out yourself." I would like to be able to get beyond that.

[mambo4]

I never had a problem with theory, but i lucked out with a jazz guitarist for a father.

However, i took a theory class in college and I sympathize with anybody who comes from a usual guitar or bass view who tries to gleen something useful from two quarters of piano-centric key signature analysis and baroque voice leading...Theory is so deep and rich and full of confusing aspects , So it's easy to get lost or overwhelmed, and what they teach in school is not a good starting point for most of us

I wish the theory courses would put down the notation paper and teach Major Scale harmony in the first quarter. The less players would be convinced that theory is of little practical value.

For me, theory always boils down to this: There's the major scale. Each note in the major scale implies a very specific chord ( that's where the I ii iii IV V vi viii stuff comes from -7 notes give you 7 chords) As long as the song you are playing sticks with those chords, you're in one key. Otherwise, you're modulating to another. What pitches you choose to play should be determined by the chord of the moment.

If you can develop a solid, practical applied grasp of the above, the rest will come easily. And those who have played for years 'by ear' may be surprised at how much their ears and fingers already know.

The rest of music theory is simply detailed elaboration of this central idea IMHO.

[mambo4]

here's my standard cut and paste reply to the theory frustrated, with emphasis on the above ideas:
---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is kinda like this:

1.) learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) learn the minor scale and the dominant scale and how it relates to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
3.) understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
4.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of a major and minor scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.
8.) dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics.
Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick learning is how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords.

If Jazz is your thing, you will probably be learning theory forever.

[DudeistMonk]

If you went to college go back and audit intro to music, or music 101, or music theory 101 or whatever they call it. It will make everything clear and from there you can rely on an instructor or this forum to learn the bass end of things.

If you didn't go to school then go sign up for the same class at community college. You'll learn all the stuff from Mambo4's post and some more.

[Bluesy Soul]

I picked up a minor in music theory while in college and I use the knowledge constantly, not only in my playing but even when I listen to music. It is absolutely worth the time and effort you'll invest. I'm fighting the urge to go on even longer on this subject, but I must suggest at least the following:

1. Make sure your teacher is well-versed in music theory, as well as the technique for your instrument. When I taught music, I taught theory from a separate text devoted to the subject: Elementary Harmony: Theory and Practice by Robert Ottman. For those who need it, there is a follow-up text: Advanced Harmony: Theory and Practice (also by Robert Ottman). I used these books for my theory courses in high school and in college, and they are still my reference works today. They're expensive, but worth it. There are now versions available with accompanying CDs and DVDs, workbooks, etc.

2. If you don't already have one, consider picking up an inexpensive keyboard for working on theory. Most of us are visual learners, at least to some degree, and I think a keyboard really "lays out" theory concepts better than most single-note/single-clef and most stringed instruments.

3. For bass players--especially those who aren't yet playing jazz--focus on chord structure and chord progressions as soon as you have a basic understanding of major and minor scales and key signatures (including cycles of fourths and fifths). I completely agree with Carol Kaye when she says it's about arpeggios, NOT scales.

Knowledge of music theory makes it far easier to learn other instruments, as well as your primary one, and to play other types of music than the one you most often play. Like any endeavor in which you increase your undertanding, your enjoyment of music will soar even higher than it is now. IMHO, music theory is the difference between being a (fill-in blank)-player and a musician.

Good luck.

Bluesy Soul

[Hoover]

I never had a "block", it all came rather easily to me, so I apologize if any of this sounds cavalier, but fwiw, the thing that "made the light go on" as far as translating theory to bass playing was the recognition that an awful lot of the stuff that gets taught as Music Theory isn't necessary in order to construct a solid, musical bass line.

Eg., you don't really need to know why a chord is functioning as V of V, or as the subV of I in a new key...you don't even need to know whether it's one or the other...you just need to know what your options are note-wise when you encounter that chord, and how to weigh those options along a Safe<>Risky continuum.

(I.e., if the chord chart says "E7" playing an E is pretty darn safe, playing a G# or a D is pretty reliably safe, playing a Bb has an element of risk, playing an F might be pretty brazen although depending on what the next chord is & how/where your line is moving could work perfectly fine...and none of those options require specific knowledge of how the E7 functions.)

[John Wentzien]

Elementary Harmony: Theory and Practice by Robert Ottman.

Starts out very basic and covers most of theory you will need as a bassist.

[Arizona Jones]

OP,

What are the notes used to build a basic, three note G chord?

[Fergie Fulton]

Many who struggle with theory read but don't understand. By that i mean i could read a book on say... Nuclear Dynamic Physics ten times and not understand it, but i can still read it. To understand music theory, you need a grounding in English for reading and writing, Arithmatic for counting, adding, dividing etc., a small amount of Latin and German for some of the terms you will come across and about ten minutes a day of your time. To understand music theory you must learn to apply it and use it before you move on. With so much information available to students of music it is very easy to get ahead of yourself and become confused, which will make you negitive and un-motivate you, so you stop.

Music has rules and a natural order which a teacher will teach for the benifit of the student with practical demonstrations and examples of how to apply it before moving on. One of those rules is disipline and in developing your disipline you will have grounding to stay with a theory, a practice study, scale study etc. till you understand it, and apply it before moving on to the next lesson or step. If that means months and months to understand the difference between a Harmonic Minor Scale and a Melodic Minor Scale so be it.

Music theory is fun and interesting and should be learned and applied in a fun and interesting way because if you have an interest in what your learning you will learn it better.

Try this simple test can you say the alphabet forwards then backwards. If you cannot do that how do you expect to read music notes which are letters backwards and forwards. Since we use only the first seven letters of the alphabet in music, after learning the alphabet backward and forwards it should be simple to go forwards and backwards on those seven letters. You can learn to do this anywhere and any time, and that is the great thing about theory, you do it in your head, you don't need and instrument to work it out, you need an instrument to apply it.

I was classically trained in music, studying with the Scottish Symphony Youth Orchestra among others till i was sixteen when i stopped classical studing to play bass guitar as a professional. I started music theory and disipline when i was nine years old and had seven years of music theory and training before i even picked up a bass. Now almost forty years later i am still learning and improving my skills and knowledge so don't be dis-heartend if you feel your not getting it.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by jaywa

I have tried reading several different books on it but I always get about three pages into it and then it just starts to make my head hurt and I give up.

Reading is the key word. Theory takes studying. Just like when we learned to read and write. For some it comes easier, for others, requires much more effort and time.

I suggest taking a theory class at the local community college. Or finding a private teacher. Maybe the theory teacher at the local college takes private students or can recommend someone.

[jaywa]

I am actually thinking of talking to the best jazz guitarist in town about taking lessons from him. Not on technique (God forbid I should ever want to play like a guitarist), but the theory/chord stuff.

This guy can play leads over ANY progression and seems to know about 10 different ways to play any chord. If nothing else it would give me some jamming opportunities with a guy who is clearly several levels better than I am, and who I probably wouldn't have a chance to play with otherwise.

Thoughts on that approach? I haven't taken a bass lesson since I was in college (20 years ago by now), so it definitely would be a new adventure.

[Stumbo]

I suggest finding a jazz pianist. The keyboard seems to lay things out easier to me. Plus you have the bass notes available as well.