Atonal music...

Pedulla? · #1 03-09-2009, 03:58 AM

I want to learn about the composition/analyzation of atonal music, can someone point me to the right place? Also any sound clips would be greatly appreciated as well.

IrishBassLad · #2 03-09-2009, 04:07 AM

I thought they were calling that Free Jazz these days?

Pedulla? · #3 03-09-2009, 04:34 AM

Freejazz, Avant Garde, Atonal, its really all the same and can someone help me with it?

IrishBassLad · #4 03-09-2009, 04:37 AM

Well, what do you want to learn? You're asking a pretty general question because, I could tell you about how to write a chord sheet out for these songs, or a lead sheet, or a score for it, or just how to actually " listen " to the Music ( hah ).

HaVIC5 · #5 03-09-2009, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedulla?

Freejazz, Avant Garde, Atonal, its really all the same and can someone help me with it?

Um, not at all. What kind of music, exactly, are you defining to be "atonal"? Webern? Ornette Coleman? Merzbow?

Pedulla? · #6 03-09-2009, 04:57 AM

Haha, well the listening part would be nice. Just different techniques for composing and tips on songs/artists to listen to.

HaVIC5 · #7 03-09-2009, 05:44 AM

No, you don't understand what I'm saying. Asking for tips for writing music that's "atonal" is exceedingly vague, because there are streams from all genres which people call "atonal", even when they aren't, and when each piece of music has absolutely nothing to do with one another. The traditional definition of atonality is music that doesn't have any tonal center, implied or otherwise, by key relationships, non-standard modalities, etc. Here are a few ideas to look into.

Pre Schoenberg atonality/semitonality - Bartok, Stravinsky, late Scriabin
12-tone serialism - Schoenberg, Webern, Berg
Mid 20th century avant-garde (WILD stuff) - Ligeti, Penderski, Xennakis, Penderecki
60's Free Jazz - Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, late John Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders
Free Improv (similar to Free Jazz) - Rare Earth, Peter Bronzmann, Evan Parker

According to the traditional definitions, usually people think of 12-tone serialism as the truest form of atonality, since all of those other things I suggested have smatterings of tonal centers here and there. I would recommend more contemporary stuff, but really, there isn't too much genuinely atonal stuff in contemporary rock/metal.

BassChuck · #8 03-09-2009, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedulla?

Haha, well the listening part would be nice. Just different techniques for composing and tips on songs/artists to listen to.

Do an internet search for '12-tone' music or serial music, or Schoenberg. This will give you one idea of one kind of music. If you can find the books, "A Year From Monday" and "Silence" by John Cage, this will give you an idea of some philosophy behind modern music.

Webern, Berg with Schoenberg complete the pre-WWII Vienna school of 12 Tone composition. Other composers to check out would be Edgard Varese ("Ionization" is one good example of his music) George Antheil ("Ballet Mecanique" is an excellent example). Elliot Carter should be checked out. Harry Parch, while not exactly 'atonal' is a unique composer and worth some interest.

It should be noted that the minimalist school of composition (Steve Reich, Phillip Glass, John Adams) is more the contemporay move and not at all atonal, but the music is interesting and worth noting if you are into whats going on recently. More atonal would be "Noise Music" and things of that ilk. Do an internet search, some of it is interesting lots of it is designed merely to be irritating. Of course "My Bloody Valentine" group is worth noting too, but more from the pop school of thought.

If all else fails, just read Kafka.

cnltb · #9 03-09-2009, 05:59 AM

Perhaps have a look as schönberg's "Harmonie Lehre".
It is a big book well worth reading.
There's also a three part thing by Hindemidt-also very worth reading

JWClark(ABD) · #10 03-09-2009, 06:31 AM

(Actually, he said, as he pushed his heavily-taped glasses up his nose,):
Harmonielehre isn't an atonal theory text. It's regular tonal harmony for the most part, with a short section on the possibilities of atonality. Hindemith, too, was working from a framework of tonality, but developing new methods of understanding it. He only analyzes one atonal piece in The Craft of Musical Composition, and it's a Schoenberg piano piece. I'd recommend George Perle's Twelve-tone Tonality as a primer on serial music. As far as listening, it depends what you're looking for. As someone said above, the Second Viennese School (Webern, Berg, and Schoenberg) are a good starting point. I dig Ligeti and Varese, they're notoriously difficult listening.

fearceol · #11 03-09-2009, 06:43 AM

These days Joe Maneri is regarded as one of the main exponents of atonal music. Here's a youtube clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pIZbgqNCyg

bhagiti · #12 03-09-2009, 06:47 AM

Ekkehard Jost's Free Jazz (Da Capo Press, 1974) has been around for a while but he does a good job of trying to get into the "whys and hows" of atonality and freedom in jazz. He covers the major figures of the 60's including Mingus, Coltrane, Ornette, Ayler, Don Cherry, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra, etc. His musical analysis is fairly comprehensive and demystified while still being an enjoyable read.

cnltb · #13 03-09-2009, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWClark(ABD)

(Actually, he said, as he pushed his heavily-taped glasses up his nose,):
Harmonielehre isn't an atonal theory text. It's regular tonal harmony for the most part, with a short section on the possibilities of atonality. Hindemith, too, was working from a framework of tonality, but developing new methods of understanding it. He only analyzes one atonal piece in The Craft of Musical Composition, and it's a Schoenberg piano piece. I'd recommend George Perle's Twelve-tone Tonality as a primer on serial music. As far as listening, it depends what you're looking for. As someone said above, the Second Viennese School (Webern, Berg, and Schoenberg) are a good starting point. I dig Ligeti and Varese, they're notoriously difficult listening.

That is correct , but both wil give one good tools to understanding it.

Pedulla? · #14 03-09-2009, 10:08 AM

Thank you everyone, I've been kinda jaded lately and wanted to learn about something completely new and foreign to me. Thank you so much, now it looks like I've got some homework to do.

Martin Bormann · #15 03-10-2009, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedulla?

Thank you everyone, I've been kinda jaded lately and wanted to learn about something completely new and foreign to me. Thank you so much, now it looks like I've got some homework to do.

Well hold on a second, Cowboy. What is your diatonic harmony studies background encompass? If you're not sharp as a whip in "DH," you might want to focus on that before you dab in to the world of atonal. Also some atonal techniques involve matrices and some heavy-duty mathematics. So, it's best to build a solid foundation first.

Bruce Lindfield · #16 03-10-2009, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

No, you don't understand what I'm saying. Asking for tips for writing music that's "atonal" is exceedingly vague, because there are streams from all genres which people call "atonal", even when they aren't, and when each piece of music has absolutely nothing to do with one another. The traditional definition of atonality is music that doesn't have any tonal center, implied or otherwise, by key relationships, non-standard modalities, etc. Here are a few ideas to look into.

Pre Schoenberg atonality/semitonality - Bartok, Stravinsky, late Scriabin
12-tone serialism - Schoenberg, Webern, Berg
Mid 20th century avant-garde (WILD stuff) - Ligeti, Penderski, Xennakis, Penderecki
60's Free Jazz - Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, late John Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders
Free Improv (similar to Free Jazz) - Rare Earth, Peter Bronzmann, Evan Parker

According to the traditional definitions, usually people think of 12-tone serialism as the truest form of atonality, ...

Actually Schonberg didn't like the term "atonal" and in his writings insisted that his music was "pantonal" - that is, it was in all keys rather than 'none'...

There is a sense in which Debussy's "L'Apres Midi d'une Faune" is the first "atonal" piece as its shifts about and doesn't ever settle on a particular key - so in that sense it has no key - although it sound quite "tonal" ...

Sconberg was intrested in "serial" music - 12-tone rows etc. as a method of compsition.

Mahler's 9th symphony was pushing tonality to its limits and Schonberg who knew Mahler, and at first copied his style in "Gurrelieder" - took this further to composing music without reference to key centres..

Schonberg's most extreme example - if you want to hear something wild - is "Pierrot Lunaire" ...

Two composers who took this further in the late 20thC are Stockhausen and Messiaen ....suggest listening to : "Gesang Der Junglinge" and "Turangalila Symphonie"...?

JimK · #17 03-10-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Mahler's 9th symphony was pushing tonality to its limits and Schonberg who knew Mahler, and at first copied his style in "Gurrelieder" - took this further to composing music without reference to key centres..

Schonberg's most extreme example - if you want to hear something wild - is "Pierrot Lunaire" ...

Two composers who took this further in the late 20thC are Stockhausen and Messiaen ....suggest listening to : "Gesang Der Junglinge" and "Turangalila Symphonie"...?

Hey, Bruce-
Do you have a specific/favourite recording/conductor/orchestra/label/etc...for the above works?

JimK · #18 03-10-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearceol

These days Joe Maneri is regarded as one of the main exponents of atonal music. Here's a youtube clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pIZbgqNCyg

Maneri is also micro-tonal.

Bruce Lindfield · #19 03-10-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimK

Hey, Bruce-
Do you have a specific/favourite recording/conductor/orchestra/label/etc...for the above works?

For the Turnagalila, I like the Concertgebouw conducted by Riccardo Chailly

http://www.amazon.com/Messiaen-Turan...VSHWFS18VP023N

- the others it doesn't matter so much, too many great versions of the Mahler to have just one - the best Stockhausen recordings are only available from the official Stockhausen website :

http://www.stockhausen.org/

Nowhere else!!

HaVIC5 · #20 03-10-2009, 11:38 AM

The problem with Schoenberg I find is that its too much "eye music". You can learn a lot from studying the score, but the serialism he employs for atonal effect often doesn't serve an emotional purpose. The most succesful atonality, in my opinion, exists both as an intellectual device and an emotional one. Pendereski and Ligeti were masters of this. If you want something cool to check out, check out Ligeti's Requiem and Pendereski's Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima. You'll **** your pants.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzOb3UhPmig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBT__...eature=related