Basic Chord Question

bmb73 · #1 10-16-2011, 07:39 AM

I have a question, it probably is a really simple answer but it has been on my mind.

If I am playing a C7 chord, do I have to include every note in that chord? Likewise, a Dmin7, is every note being played also in that chord?

Or, is it just the inclusion of one or two notes in that chord that suggest the chord itself? Playing a C7, if I just include the Bb and C, then I am playing a Dominant 7?

Now, if it is minor7, what must be played to suggest that chord? Would it be the b3rd itself along with whatever other notes fall in that specific chord?

Hope this makes sense, thanks in advance!

johndough247 · #2 10-16-2011, 07:55 AM

IMO the 5th is the least revelant note in most 7th chords (Major 7th, dom 7th, minor 7th), so if I had to omit a note, it'd be the 5th. Only when you get into diminished or augmented chords (chords that change the 5th) or other chords with extended tensions, then the 5th is vital and must be included.

When playing min 7, dom 7 and maj 7 chords on bass, I almost always take out the 5th.

Example: E7: E string 12F (12th Fret) [E], D string 12F [D], G string 12F [G#]...sometimes i'll drop the 5th in there (A string 14th fret [b]) but most times I don't.

bmb73 · #3 10-16-2011, 08:05 AM

Interesting, I was told that usually the 3rd is the least relevant. Definetly the 7th being the strongest. What do you use in a minor chord to suggest it is a minor chord? The only difference between a minor and dominant being the b3?

Schlyder · #4 10-16-2011, 08:23 AM

I agree with johndough247, the 5th is least important for Major, Minor, and Dom. chords and can be dropped out. Think of the good old 1/5 power chord. It is the most ambiguous chord type because it has no 3rd or 7th.
3rds and 7ths are the Kings of the chord tones for Maj, Min, and Dom. But if the chord has extensions you can play the extension and leave out the 3rd or the 7th, as they may be implied, or someone else may be covering that chord tone at that moment... depends on the situation.

The 5th is important and needed for Dim, and Aug chords.

bmb73 · #5 10-16-2011, 08:35 AM

So the 5th is not very important because it can be in all of the more common chord tones?

Swampman Cory · #6 10-16-2011, 08:41 AM

In my opinion, it depends on the context. I figure there are no rules. A "chord" itself has all of the notes, but just because you don't play them doesn't mean it's not a chord. Check this out though: I played an A and a C high up on the neck when I was strumming, trying to chart out a chord progression for a song. It sounded good, so I wrote down Am. A day later I went back to play the tune, and I realized "wait, something is not right. This sounds good, but something doesn't fit." I realized that the progression actually went to an F, which like an Am, has an A and C.

Context is everything. If you're playing a duet with a sax player and he picks up an altered chord tone for you, it might really belong in the chord... you're just arranging it across parts.

bmb73 · #7 10-16-2011, 08:49 AM

Makes sense, before diving into music theory this stuff seemed so foreign to me. I am glad I am taking the time to understand this. Not saying I am an expert by any means.. But having those lightbulb moments make it worthwhile.

Thanks!

MalcolmAmos · #8 10-16-2011, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmb73

I have a question, it probably is a really simple answer but it has been on my mind.

If I am playing a C7 chord, do I have to include every note in that chord? Likewise, a Dmin7, is every note being played also in that chord?

No not every note is necessary.

Quote:

Or, is it just the inclusion of one or two notes in that chord that suggest the chord itself? Playing a C7, if I just include the Bb and C, then I am playing a Dominant 7?

If you can have only two the root and the b7 would be a good choice.

Quote:

Now, if it is minor7, what must be played to suggest that chord? Would it be the b3rd itself along with whatever other notes fall in that specific chord?

Good question, in my World 3 signifies major and b3 signifies minor. Some just rely on the root and do not get into it being major or minor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFcsEtFIKA -- remember he is left handed.

Country is ruled by the root and the five. More sophisticated music perhaps not.

Bob C · #9 10-16-2011, 08:55 AM

Many chord books discuss this very topic. I agree with the above comments.

3rd is more important than 5th, as it distinguishes between major and minor.

Context is important to consider too. To expand on that, are you playing solo, or will keys or guitar be covering some ground? They will hit notes that you omit.

Many harmonies can be "implied". So, your idea of emphasizing the 7th and skipping the 5th or even root is spot on.

BTW, are we talking about strumming chords or arpeggios? Either way, you can pluck bass notes and alternate different "fill in" notes.

Crazyeelboy · #10 10-16-2011, 10:55 AM

As a general matter, the third and sevenths would be the last notes I would omit in a seventh chord, as they add most of the "personality" of the chord, but all depends on what you're doing in the song. I would usually try to avoid using the seventh as the lowest note in the chord in the bass register.

johndough247 · #11 10-16-2011, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyeelboy

As a general matter, the third and sevenths would be the last notes I would omit in a seventh chord, as they add most of the "personality" of the chord, but all depends on what you're doing in the song. I would usually try to avoid using the seventh as the lowest note in the chord in the bass register.

+1

BassChuck · #12 10-16-2011, 11:57 AM

Context is everything. As Malcolm pointed out, Country is ruled by roots and fifths. Jazz less so, in fact with jazz routinely going to the fifth from the root can be trouble owing to the liberal use of b5's and other chord alteration that are close to the fifth.

If you are laying down a groove you won't have to deal with all the chord tones, in fact its probably better if you don't.. if someone is soloing. While playing during the 'head' of a jazz tune, be really careful about the melody note, and play something else to enhance the harmony. If you're in a large group you can count on a lot of the chord members and chord extentions being present in other instruments and it just might be the best idea to lay on root.... again, depending on style. IMHO using the fifth of the chord more in lines for ballads is good as it adds a certain solidness to the harmony.... faster tempos (again in my opinon) sometimes with feel heavier and slower with over use of the fifth. Thirds and sevenths work nicely in faster tempos because they add energy to the line.

As always, let your ear be your guide. Listen to recorded examples of the music you are trying to play. Don't concern yourself so much with theory or 'right and wrong' and think (listen for) whats musically useful.

MalcolmAmos · #13 10-16-2011, 01:44 PM

The Official Carol Kaye Web Site
Take a look at tip 2, 4, 6, 12, 55, & 82.

sammyp · #14 10-16-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmb73

Interesting, I was told that usually the 3rd is the least relevant. Definetly the 7th being the strongest. What do you use in a minor chord to suggest it is a minor chord? The only difference between a minor and dominant being the b3?

no John is right .....in traditional jazz theory the 3rd and 7th are the most important to 4 note chords ....the 5th is the least and the root after the 5th ..

however this is a bass guitar forum and many are not playing jazz here so the root and 5th are quite important for many of us ..

at the end of the day ....all the notes for a chord are good!

Snarf · #15 10-16-2011, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmb73

I have a question, it probably is a really simple answer but it has been on my mind.

If I am playing a C7 chord, do I have to include every note in that chord? Likewise, a Dmin7, is every note being played also in that chord?

Or, is it just the inclusion of one or two notes in that chord that suggest the chord itself? Playing a C7, if I just include the Bb and C, then I am playing a Dominant 7?

Now, if it is minor7, what must be played to suggest that chord? Would it be the b3rd itself along with whatever other notes fall in that specific chord?

Hope this makes sense, thanks in advance!

A lot of this depends on the key you're in and the function of the chord in question. For the C7, you could play just the 3rd and 7th, but unless you resolve to F or D minor, it's just going to sound like a tri tone. If you've got just the root and 7th, that's pretty ambiguous. Whether or not it sounds minor or dominant will depend on the rest of the chords surrounding it.

As a general rule of thumb, the characteristic notes of a chord are the 3rd and 7th. The root and 5th of chord#2 can often be implied through the chords before and after (chord#1 and chord#3) (this is not a way of analyzing, just a way of explaining it through text). In a chord with a diminished or altered 5th, the 5th becomes a characteristic chord tone.

So much of voice leading (talking about instruments in a band setting here, not chorales) depends on the context of the rest of the harmony going on when it comes to leaving out 5ths or 3rds.

Jeff Huber · #16 10-16-2011, 03:26 PM

My question is whether you're playing this as a block chord or a broken chord. If you're playing it as a broken chord aka chord tone, how many notes are you trying to cover? If you include the octave note you have five to work with, and can easily cover two 4/4 measures going up and down ala boogie woogie. You can use a different order every time you use the chord, so you can actually play it over quite a few bars without repeating yourself.

JTE · #17 10-16-2011, 03:29 PM

Are you talking about the notes to use in a functional bass line to outline the chord, or actually playing a chord by hitting all the notes you choose to play at one time? If I was thinking of what notes I needed to play for a G7 as a guitar player, the 3 and b7 are the ones I'm going for first. If I'm playing bass, it's going to be 1 and 5. The 1 and 5 tell everyone it's a G chord of some sort. The 3 and b7 give it the tension that makes it work and make it clear it's not a Gmin7. Unless of course you want it ambiguous.

And of course all of this is just talking a G7 without context...

John

bmb73 · #18 10-16-2011, 04:26 PM

Thanks Malcolm, there is some good stuff in there

bmb73 · #19 10-16-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

Are you talking about the notes to use in a functional bass line to outline the chord, or actually playing a chord by hitting all the notes you choose to play at one time? If I was thinking of what notes I needed to play for a G7 as a guitar player, the 3 and b7 are the ones I'm going for first. If I'm playing bass, it's going to be 1 and 5. The 1 and 5 tell everyone it's a G chord of some sort. The 3 and b7 give it the tension that makes it work and make it clear it's not a Gmin7. Unless of course you want it ambiguous.

And of course all of this is just talking a G7 without context...

John

Definetly talking about function bass line work. The replies I have gotten are great. I have some songs I am working on in the Bass White Pages. I blacked out the tab and am going from there as far as reading/music theory application.

Snarf · #20 10-16-2011, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmb73

Definetly talking about function bass line work. The replies I have gotten are great. I have some songs I am working on in the Bass White Pages. I blacked out the tab and am going from there as far as reading/music theory application.

In that case, if you read my post above, disregard it.