Basic question regarding arpeggios & 9ths (long post warning)

[Matthew Bryson]

I've been trying to get some more theory into my head, and into my playing. I feel that I've identified what it is I need to learn and practice. Right now, it's chord theory (7th chords + 9ths) I'm not playing the chords, I'm playing them as arpeggios (along with my scale practice)

I thought I knew what an arpeggio was, but I didn't realize how to use it. I kind of think I'm starting to get it now. My practice routine will now involve playing the arpeggio that begins on each step of the scale and playing it to the 9th - so I'm finally learning, memorizing, internalizing, and playing the following:


MAJOR

I – Maj7 – Major 9th

ii – m7 – Major 9th

iii – m7 –minor 9th

IV - Maj7 – Major 9th

V – 7 (dominant) – Major 9th

vi - m7 - Major 9th

vii – m7 / b5 (half diminished) - minor 9th

(and of course, then I do the same thing for the minor scale too)


I put together the info above by sorting out on my own what is in each chord, then figuring out what to call it Questions: Did I get it right? Is all of the information I have above correct? Is that the correct way to refer to the 9th - "major and minor 9th"? (I'm not sure about this - I know the major and minor scales have the same 9th... maybe it should be "lowered"?) I notice that the half diminished chord comes from the Major scale, but the diminished chord does not seem to be derived from the major scale - is it then "non diatonic" and what scale, if any, is it derived from? How about suspended and augmented chords - are they derived from a different scale, or are all of those chords designed to be used for effect when playing in standard keys.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Matthew Bryson

Is that the correct way to refer to the 9th - "major and minor 9th"? (I'm not sure about this - I know the major and minor scales have the same 9th... maybe it should be "lowered"?

Its usually "9" or "b9" or "+9" in charts I've seen.
when you write a chord symbol, "Maj" and "Min" almost always refer to the 3rd, and the 7th.
Basically you only write "maj" if the third and 7th are both major .
Other tones are generally called flat/lowered or raised/sharp/augmented.
also, "maj 9" always implies a major 7th as well; "9" by itself implies a flat 7.

"Maj7 – Major 9th" = "I Maj 9" (maj 7th is implied by "Maj")

"m7 – Major 9th" = "m9"

iii – m7 –minor 9th = "m7b9"

IV - Maj7 – Major 9th "Maj 9"

V – 7 (dominant) – Major 9th ="V9" (b7 is implied)

vi - m7 - Major 9th ="m9"

vii – m7 / b5 (half diminished) - minor 9th = "m7b5b9"

[Matthew Bryson]

Thanks. I was starting to think that "major" and "minor" were wrong in regards to 9ths - the major and minor scale both have the same 9th. I'll just think of it as a flat 9th.

[DocBop]

Working out the scale harmony is good. My only comment is the VII mi7b5 I wouldn't add the 9th if you do it would be b9 if you're stacking the 3rds.

Most people only learn their arpeggio from root on a low string up. Also focus on the root on you high string in the fingering pattern. Many times your playing a bass line or solo and your up on a high string when the chord changes. You can hear the mental gymnastics of some players trying to see the note based on where the arpeggio is from the low root, or worse they just jump down and go back up. Learn where all the roots are and over time all the arpeggio tones.

Learn your arpeggios over two octaves. Two ways to approach this. First is straight Root, 3rd, 5th, 7th and repeat in second octave. The second way is to do the arpeggio up to the 13th. Root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, and back down. Don't repeat the root go from 7th to the 9th. That is important to get used to for soloing later.

After learning the physical arpeggio fingerings then start playing them in the order of the harmonized scale. That will start getting you ear tuned in to the harmonized scale and the relationship between the chords. Then take a Real Book or other source of common chord changes and play thru the chords for songs in arpeggios in eighth notes. In beginning okay to drop down to low root while learning the fingerings. If just learning arp's then just go up to the 7th then root. More advanced go up to the 13th.

First decide on a range of the neck you are going to play within, highest and lowest note. Play the arpeggio up in eighth notes, when the chord changes don't drop down go to the nearest chord tone for the new chord. For example if playing a Ami7 arpeggio ascending and you are on the D-string and tune changes to D7 find the nearest D7 chord tone continuing to ascending. Continue up D7 arp until you come to end of D7 chord tone in the range the start decending. So your playing a tune in arpeggios, when chord change go to nearest chord tone in the same direct up or down. Reverse direction when you reach the available chord tones in the range you gave yourself.

For me that exercise was a major turning point in my playing. I really gain a knowledge and command of my fingerboard. I was able to smoothly connect chords in bass lines and soloing. If you want to start simple instead of using song use common chord movements like II-V-I, II-V-II, III-IV-II-V-I, and so on.

One bit of advise when first learning this don't just plow thru it. If not sure where the closest chord tone is, don't guess, stop, figure it out, and pickup from there. Better to slow down or stop and start than play wrong notes.

[Matthew Bryson]

Doc Bob, Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm sure that I will be referring back to it as I work this stuff out in my practice routine. I have a couple of follow up questions - when you say:

Originally Posted by DocBop

After learning the physical arpeggio fingerings then start playing them in the order of the harmonized scale. That will start getting you ear tuned in to the harmonized scale and the relationship between the chords.

I think this is what I'm doing. I'll play, for example, a G major scale in one octave (to get the sound in my ear) then I play it in two octaves, then I play it from the lowest note on my bass to the highest note on my bass. Then I play it again in one octave to really have the sound of G major in my ear. Then I do my arpeggios. I start on G and play a Gmaj7 +9 - I play it up and down with even time and then kind of jam around to get the sound of the chord tones into my ear. Then I play an Amin7 +9 - I make a point of thinking of it as the A chord within the G major scale/key, and I'll play around with it like I did the G arpeggio, then I play a Bmin7 +b9 then Cmaj7 +9 and so on until I reach G again. I do play the five note arpeggio starting at the octave G too, so I do a total of 8 of these 5 note arpeggios.

When this becomes comfortable, my plan is to learn to play different inversions. I'll have to learn what that means first. Is that what you meant by this:

Originally Posted by DocBop

Most people only learn their arpeggio from root on a low string up. Also focus on the root on you high string in the fingering pattern. Many times your playing a bass line or solo and your up on a high string when the chord changes...

Originally Posted by DocBop

One bit of advise when first learning this don't just plow thru it. If not sure where the closest chord tone is, don't guess, stop, figure it out, and pickup from there. Better to slow down or stop and start than play wrong notes.

This is a brand new practice routine, so I am starting slow. I'm doing one scale/key per day. In the future I'll do the major and minor for one note per day (Gmaj and Gmin) but for now, just one scale. I've hit some wrong notes while working through the arpeggios and it was amazing how the wrong notes really jump out at you. I am making sure to listen for the right notes as well as figuring out where they should be.

Thanks Doc. I can’t believe I didn’t learn this stuff a long time ago. As I was sorting it out this weekend, I was so motivated as it felt really important. (like something basic I should have learned long ago) I think this might help me out of the root note rut, and allow me to have ideas about what to play within any given chord.

[Matthew Bryson]

Originally Posted by DocBop

My only comment is the VII mi7b5 I wouldn't add the 9th if you do it would be b9 if you're stacking the 3rds.

The III chord of the major also would have a b9, right? Example - in G major it would be Bm7 and the 9 would be a b9 - am I right?

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Matthew Bryson

Doc Bob, Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm sure that I will be referring back to it as I work this stuff out in my practice routine. I have a couple of follow up questions - when you say:

I think this is what I'm doing. I'll play, for example, a G major scale in one octave (to get the sound in my ear) then I play it in two octaves, then I play it from the lowest note on my bass to the highest note on my bass. Then I play it again in one octave to really have the sound of G major in my ear. Then I do my arpeggios. I start on G and play a Gmaj7 +9 - I play it up and down with even time and then kind of jam around to get the sound of the chord tones into my ear. Then I play an Amin7 +9 - I make a point of thinking of it as the A chord within the G major scale/key, and I'll play around with it like I did the G arpeggio, then I play a Bmin7 +b9 then Cmaj7 +9 and so on until I reach G again. I do play the five note arpeggio starting at the octave G too, so I do a total of 8 of these 5 note arpeggios.

When this becomes comfortable, my plan is to learn to play different inversions. I'll have to learn what that means first. Is that what you meant by this:



This is a brand new practice routine, so I am starting slow. I'm doing one scale/key per day. In the future I'll do the major and minor for one note per day (Gmaj and Gmin) but for now, just one scale. I've hit some wrong notes while working through the arpeggios and it was amazing how the wrong notes really jump out at you. I am making sure to listen for the right notes as well as figuring out where they should be.

Thanks Doc. I can’t believe I didn’t learn this stuff a long time ago. As I was sorting it out this weekend, I was so motivated as it felt really important. (like something basic I should have learned long ago) I think this might help me out of the root note rut, and allow me to have ideas about what to play within any given chord.

You are well on your way and sound like you have a good approach going. Just add doing songs or common chord changes when ready.

Like you I didn't come across this routine until later on in my studies. Not only did it improve my transistions from chord to chord, but I suddenly was able to look at the fretboard and see it in all the chord tones, all the safe notes, all the target notes to resolve to.

I wish I had learned it sooner, but at same time I feel we learn things when we are ready to learn them. Something I don't think we can appreciate if we discover them too soon.