Basic simple rhythms

[ElectroVibe]

Unless there is already another thread for this, I wanted to start a thread to discuss some of the more popular rhythms used by bass players. Sometimes these are the same rhythms played by the kick drum.

I also had some questions about these rhythms that maybe some advanced players might help me with.

I'll use the numbers from 1 through 8 to specify the rhythm. For example, a rhythm playing all 8th notes would be represented by this.
Used in punk rock:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

John McVie used this one in Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams"
1 - - 4 5 - - 8 1 - - 4 5 - - 8 1

A similar one used by the Eagles:
1 - - 4 5 - - - 1 - - 4 5 - - - 1

A similar one without the extra note which I think the Byrds may have used on a few songs:
1 - - 4 - - - - 1 - - 4 - - - - 1

And this one is VERY common with almost anything, from rock to slower songs, and common with drummers:
1 - - - 5 6 - - 1 - - - 5 6 - - 1

QUESTIONS:

1. Does the bass always have to play the same thing the kick drum is? I know there can be slight variations, but what about the last two examples above. If the drummer is using the last one, could the bass player play the one before it?

2. How do you find the right beat for a song when you are working with a band? I like to play with basic rhythms, so this is something that concerns me.

Thanks for any advice or other information.

[Fergie Fulton]

Simple answer is no.
Playing to the bass drum is a sonic effect, playing with a bass drum is playing part of the beat, playing with the drummer is playing the rhythm of the song.
In all those situations you can 'counter' what is being heard, so you can play counter beats, counter rhythms and counter tempos.
Again it is down to experience and skill to hold your own end up in these matters, as it is when you 'lean on the kit' or the 'kit leans on you', which is just one of the expression used to describe a certain dynamic you can create.

Dynamics such as being right on the hi-hat or the snare, ride, etc you can choose any part of the kit to play with or to...it is not always on or with a bass drum....then there is implyed beats and rhythms.
These are effects created between the instruments used to give the feel of something is happening when it is not.
In these bass line situations the player, when learning it, actually over plays and complicates their part because they are taking in the implication of other instruments on the rhythm or beat.
This normally gives the player a feeling of "it sound right but feels wrong" or "it feels right but sounds wrong", because someone is not playing what the should.

Classic example of this is, Whisky in the Jar, by Thin Lizzy, a song i have been corrected on a few times by others.
This always makes me laugh for the obvious reason if anyone has ever learned the song rather than the bass line will know.

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by ElectroVibe

Used in punk rock:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Straight 8ths are rather uncommon in punk rock. Metal yes, California rock, pop sure but not punk.
Punk is a far cousin from ska. There is always the idea of a shuffle behind it, even if it isn't played per se.
What you find in punk rock (we're talking style cliches here) is an alternance of 8ths and doubled 16th notes, or 4ths ands double 8ths.

[Schmorgy]

I'd almost advise against sticking to the kick drum for the simple fact that you'll just get drowned out and find yourself fighting for the same "Space". The bass is great for establishing a rhythm off the beat set by the drummer while staying in the context of it and supporting the lead instruments.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Schmorgy

I'd almost advise against sticking to the kick drum for the simple fact that you'll just get drowned out and find yourself fighting for the same "Space". The bass is great for establishing a rhythm off the beat set by the drummer while staying in the context of it and supporting the lead instruments.

Using the beat as set by the drummer........
While staying in context of it AND supporting the lead instruments. YES! I consider the vocals as a lead instrument. OK with that in mind......

Most melodies have one note per lyric syllable. How fast the syllables are sung dictates bpm used for this song. Once that is established we maintain that bpm.

Right or wrong, here is what I end up doing....
Listen to the kick drum for my bpm then be aware of the one note per lyric syllable - for the notes I sound - and augment the vocals by accenting the chord change syllable. Being dead on. If the change happens on the second syllable that is when I change chords.

I follow the kick drum, yes sometime the song naturally sends me to the high hat, and then augment the lyrics being sung with my chord tone notes.... and being dead on with the chord changes.

Long story to say, I'm relying on an internal feel and not a mechanical 1-2-3-4 beat. I leave the mechanical 1-2-3-4 beat to the drummer - which we all use as our guide - and I fill out the underlining rhythm of the syllables being sung. That varies with the song. Sometime it is root on one and then nothing till the next root, other times more chord tones are called for. It's a feel thing - supporting the lead instrument, in this case the vocalist.

If you do not have a drummer I understand the mechanical rhythm falls to the bass, but, when there is a drummer ..........

Appreciate a few words on supporting the lead instruments.

[Art Araya]

I think that the style of music and also the particular song determine whether or not to lock in exactly.

I play with different drummers in my church band. One of the drummers plays simple, repeated bass drum patterns which build in complexity and density as the energy of the song builds. I generally lock in with him and play very close to what his bass drum is playing. This helps the band sound tighter.

Another drummer (a much younger guy) never plays the same thing twice - his bass drum is always improvising. I have a very hard time locking in with him and I think the band and overall sound suffers because of his approach.

In our band with the music we're playing I've found it best to lock in with the bass drum and of course to play off of and around the basics but for most of the song to lock tight with the bass drum if it's playing a strong pattern.

[ElectroVibe]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Straight 8ths are rather uncommon in punk rock. Metal yes, California rock, pop sure but not punk.
Punk is a far cousin from ska. There is always the idea of a shuffle behind it, even if it isn't played per se.
What you find in punk rock (we're talking style cliches here) is an alternance of 8ths and doubled 16th notes, or 4ths ands double 8ths.

I was thinking of bands like the Ramones and the Sex Pistols. I think Steve Jones probably played a steady beat like that on the records.

Dee Dee Ramone did a similar thing, but it seems like he skipped some beats. I'm not sure exactly what he was doing. Johnny did a similar thing with the rhythm guitar, but I don't know if the two of them played in synch or were each doing their own thing. Just steady down- picking and strumming for both.

[ElectroVibe]

Originally Posted by Schmorgy

I'd almost advise against sticking to the kick drum for the simple fact that you'll just get drowned out and find yourself fighting for the same "Space". The bass is great for establishing a rhythm off the beat set by the drummer while staying in the context of it and supporting the lead instruments.

The thing is, I like to simplify the beat of the song and sort of reinforce it.

[ElectroVibe]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Using the beat as set by the drummer........
While staying in context of it AND supporting the lead instruments. YES! I consider the vocals as a lead instrument. OK with that in mind......

Most melodies have one note per lyric syllable. How fast the syllables are sung dictates bpm used for this song. Once that is established we maintain that bpm.

Right or wrong, here is what I end up doing....
Listen to the kick drum for my bpm then be aware of the one note per lyric syllable - for the notes I sound - and augment the vocals by accenting the chord change syllable. Being dead on. If the change happens on the second syllable that is when I change chords.

I follow the kick drum, yes sometime the song naturally sends me to the high hat, and then augment the lyrics being sung with my chord tone notes.... and being dead on with the chord changes.

Long story to say, I'm relying on an internal feel and not a mechanical 1-2-3-4 beat. I leave the mechanical 1-2-3-4 beat to the drummer - which we all use as our guide - and I fill out the underlining rhythm of the syllables being sung. That varies with the song. Sometime it is root on one and then nothing till the next root, other times more chord tones are called for. It's a feel thing - supporting the lead instrument, in this case the vocalist.

If you do not have a drummer I understand the mechanical rhythm falls to the bass, but, when there is a drummer ..........

Appreciate a few words on supporting the lead instruments.

I'll try some of that. I would like to play by "feel" better than I do. I can do it when I am by myself. But when I am with a band and performing, I really require some system of simplification. I hope to improve in that regard, though.

[ElectroVibe]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Classic example of this is, Whisky in the Jar, by Thin Lizzy, a song i have been corrected on a few times by others.
This always makes me laugh for the obvious reason if anyone has ever learned the song rather than the bass line will know.

I'll check that out.

[ElectroVibe]

Originally Posted by Art Araya

I think that the style of music and also the particular song determine whether or not to lock in exactly.

I play with different drummers in my church band. One of the drummers plays simple, repeated bass drum patterns which build in complexity and density as the energy of the song builds. I generally lock in with him and play very close to what his bass drum is playing. This helps the band sound tighter.

Another drummer (a much younger guy) never plays the same thing twice - his bass drum is always improvising. I have a very hard time locking in with him and I think the band and overall sound suffers because of his approach.

In our band with the music we're playing I've found it best to lock in with the bass drum and of course to play off of and around the basics but for most of the song to lock tight with the bass drum if it's playing a strong pattern.

Right now I am playing with a very experienced drummer. That is why I usually follow him on most songs.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Art Araya

I think that the style of music and also the particular song determine whether or not to lock in exactly.

I play with different drummers in my church band. One of the drummers plays simple, repeated bass drum patterns which build in complexity and density as the energy of the song builds. I generally lock in with him and play very close to what his bass drum is playing. This helps the band sound tighter.

Another drummer (a much younger guy) never plays the same thing twice - his bass drum is always improvising. I have a very hard time locking in with him and I think the band and overall sound suffers because of his approach.

In our band with the music we're playing I've found it best to lock in with the bass drum and of course to play off of and around the basics but for most of the song to lock tight with the bass drum if it's playing a strong pattern.

That young drummer should play jazz fusion or technical death metal. Those two genre offert a lot of variety in the drum, it sounds almost like it is a melodic instrument instead of a glorified-oversized metronome

[ics1974]

I am going through Ed Friedlands book Bass Groove. It is amazing for this type of thing.
Get the book!
http://www.amazon.com/Bass-Grooves-D.../dp/0879307773

[Mushroo]

It all depends on the genre, of course, but here's a video lesson that changed the way I think about rhythm, hope you enjoy it as much as I did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHE6hZU72A4

Once you've mastered that and are ready for the advanced lesson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFcpBB4Yy_M

[ElectroVibe]

Bootsy's simple advice is great.

But I am trying to make it simple along those lines. The first time I ever played a bass gig I didn't know much about these patterns in my OP. I was playing something like simple HALF notes on one song. The drummer was looking at me like he couldn't follow along (he was playing bongos for that song). And the other songs I had learned the bass parts by listening to a cassette beforehand, so I didn't know the logic behind what I was doing on the other songs, even though I was playing parts that made sense. In retrospect I can understand why playing those simple half notes sounded kind of dumb.

But I don't think you could always play QUARTER(?) notes like the way Bootsy is sounding them with his voice. That wouldn't work on most typical songs. It might work on some. But his point about playing the 1st WHOLE beat makes sense.

I am trying to understand why the beats in my OP are so common (None of them use the quarter notes), and if there are any other similar ones that I haven't heard.

[Mushroo]

Bootsy isn't playing the quarter notes, he's saying the quarter notes, meaning that's the internal pulse he's strongly feeling, so he can play syncopated lines on his bass that dance around the pulse. Obviously for certain styles of music, the Bootsy approach might be completely inappropriate.

One way I like to think of it, is playing where the snare drum isn't... leave a nice "pocket" for the drummer to place his snare drum thwack! sound.

Anthony Wellington has a really cool exercise on subdividing the beat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sw_trDFJw8

[ElectroVibe]

Another way of asking this is, why is playing the 1st and the 4th eighth note so commonly used, but you would never really hear just the 1st and the 5th (which would be half notes if I'm not mistaken). You might hear it in some country songs, but not so much outside of that.

But if you throw in the 6th eighth note it all sounds just fine. Like in my "1 5 6" example in my OP.

[ElectroVibe]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

Bootsy isn't playing the quarter notes, he's saying the quarter notes, meaning that's the internal pulse he's strongly feeling, so he can play syncopated lines on his bass that dance around the pulse. Obviously for certain styles of music, the Bootsy approach might be completely inappropriate.
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Yes. I think his approach could apply to many styles of music.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by ElectroVibe

Another way of asking this is, why is playing the 1st and the 4th eighth note so commonly used, but you would never really hear just the 1st and the 5th (which would be half notes if I'm not mistaken). You might hear it in some country songs, but not so much outside of that.

But if you throw in the 6th eighth note it all sounds just fine. Like in my "1 5 6" example in my OP.

The word I think you're looking for is "syncopation" which is an absolutely fundamental ingredient in most musical styles these days.

[Cycho]

In some ways the bass is a "tuned drum" -- a drum that can play notes. Listen to what the drummer is doing with his kit: does he play the same thing with his right hand as he does with his left? I hope not! You are not constrained to follow one of his drums any more than he is. What your audience will hear is the sum of what he is doing and what you are doing. You should be hearing that too. If it sounds tight and musical that is all that really matters.

One more thing: don't focus too much on eighth notes. Many useful rhythms come from triplets, sixteenths, etc.